Transferring to another school! (need advice)

[ave_turuta]

Dear all,

This august I will be transferring to a different TKD school. Unfortunately, as much as I love my current school, I am moving overseas for a long period of time and this is the only way I can keep practicing TKD. I have already asked our master for advice as to which schools I should join in the new place(s) I go to, but I still have some questions. Most of the schools in the cities I will be living in in Spain follow the WTF system. At my present school, we do the traditional ITF patterns (Chon Ji, etc. etc.) but follow WTF on all the other stuff; consequently, I have not studied the WTF forms. I am currently a green belt in my school after 10 months of practice.

My question is: in the new school, after I have received permission to join, must I ask for permission to keep wearing my green belt? (I don´t mind wearing a white belt if that is required, I just would like to know what the proper thing to do is). Do I ask the master in the new school to teach me the poomse separately as if it was a "crash course" of sorts?

Anyhow, these are some of the doubts I have regarding etiquette and other stuff. I am really sad I have to leave my present school: I love everything about it, but I can´t carry it and its people with me overseas! :-( bummer.

Thanks for your help
A.T.

 

[Brad Dunne]

When you present yourself to the Master or main instructor of this new school, you will be asked about your back ground. From this information, you will be told what will exspected from you. Just follow the information given, this will be all the proper etiquette that should be required. Have a safe journey.


:asian:

 

[ave_turuta]

When you present yourself to the Master or main instructor of this new school, you will be asked about your back ground. From this information, you will be told what will exspected from you. Just follow the information given, this will be all the proper etiquette that should be required. Have a safe journey.


:asian:

Thank you very much. Another question is: I noticed that several schools in Spain that follow WTF do not require breaking as part of their 1st dan test. I thought breaking was a required part of all tests in both WTF and ITF styles. Am I wrong? I really like breaking and I was surprised to see this. Could it be just a matter of choice on the part of that particular school? Thanks again
AT

 

[TigerWoman]

I believe that WTF doesn't require the breaking, that comes from the master's requirements. If your new school doesn't require it, that's too bad. I think it is a great learning tool. Also it seems to separate the ability from belt to belt as it takes learned technique, accumulated strength etc. not to mention perseverance.

They might still have it in tournaments though, so you can practice for that.

WTF is usually more physically oriented so it will be good to get the conditioning while you are in Spain. The forms are easier to remember than ITF, mirrored side technique on the I formation. We have someone who was a blue belt in ITF that joined a year ago. She started over since she hadn't been in it for years but if you are ongoing, I don't see the reason for starting at white. You will have to learn white-gold-orange-green to get to the next promotional level, I would think, but that would be fast for you. Those first four forms are pretty easy. But then there are self-defense, one steps etc. Also our kicking technique is different so that will be an adjustment and also if you go back to ITF later. I would think it would make you more rounded to get both.

It is up to the master instructor where he places you or what you wear. Just go with the flow as at green you are still pretty much a beginner and it is all good to learn. TW

 

[arnisador]

I agree that the new instructor will likely ask you about your background and let you know about the belt. If he says nothing...wear white.

 

[terryl965]

The instructor will ask and you should decline to wear your old belt for the system is not the same ITF and WTF is two totally different styles of TKD. I know I do them both, show him that rank means nothing and you are a willing student to learn the system the way he teaches it.

Terry Lee Stoker

 

[Marginal]

Well, WTF everything but patterns doesn't really scream ITF as it is. Just doing the ITF patterns on their own doesn't even mean the patterns are being done ITF style. I've seen some very "creative" interpretations come from WTF schools on the net already...

 

[ave_turuta]

Thank you for the advice. I will consult with our master at the school and follow his advice

As for ITF vs. WTF, I honestly was not aware of that distinction until I started reading about TKD in this and other forums and, to be honest, it makes no difference to me. Anything new I can learn, I will learn whether I am wearing a green belt or a white belt; however, I do see my belt as a reflection of my personal effort and think it deserves some recognition of sorts, as much as I dont think rank is important, it is also a measure that reminds me of my progress as much as it reminds me of how much I still need to learn). I know the forms we do are ITF because I have been told so, but to me I am just practicing TKD and if I am giving the chance of learning the poomse, I will be happy to learn those too! I am not interested in competing or tournaments but just practicing the art.

While I will not mention the name of my school, Marginal, I can only say it is a very well respected school and our Sa Bu Nim is one of the most respected in the US at the national level. The reason why he teaches the traditional ITF patterns is because that is the way he was taught by his own master. We do a lot of competition-oriented work and our master is a well-respected individual in the world of competition TKD, but we also put a lot of emphasis on things like breaking, which I see is not strong in the WTF world (unfortunately, imho). We have students in our school who trained under other systems but eventually became black belts in our school, and that´s fine and dandy; we also have guest students who practice in our school for a couple of months and nobody cares whether they are ITF or WTF but whether they have interest in learning the art.

I practiced judo for a while when I was younger and the policy in our school was: if you came from a different school after a long break in practice, you wore a white belt until you had regained your skills. Then, the instructor allowed you to wear your color belt again as a sign of recognition of your previous work and also as an example to the white belts in the dojo.

My perception, anyway, is: do as told, and be grateful that you are given the opportunity to learn.

Thanks 2 all.
A.T.

 

[ave_turuta]

The instructor will ask and you should decline to wear your old belt for the system is not the same ITF and WTF is two totally different styles of TKD. I know I do them both, show him that rank means nothing and you are a willing student to learn the system the way he teaches it.

Terry Lee Stoker

Thanks Mr. Stoker. As I mentioned our school is not strictly ITF: it is only the forms and the emphasis on the breaking that makes it a little different from other schools, I guess. However, your advice is sound and I will just follow whatever I am adviced to do in the new school.

Thanks again!

 

[ave_turuta]

I believe that WTF doesn't require the breaking, that comes from the master's requirements. If your new school doesn't require it, that's too bad. I think it is a great learning tool. Also it seems to separate the ability from belt to belt as it takes learned technique, accumulated strength etc. not to mention perseverance.

They might still have it in tournaments though, so you can practice for that.

WTF is usually more physically oriented so it will be good to get the conditioning while you are in Spain. The forms are easier to remember than ITF, mirrored side technique on the I formation. We have someone who was a blue belt in ITF that joined a year ago. She started over since she hadn't been in it for years but if you are ongoing, I don't see the reason for starting at white. You will have to learn white-gold-orange-green to get to the next promotional level, I would think, but that would be fast for you. Those first four forms are pretty easy. But then there are self-defense, one steps etc. Also our kicking technique is different so that will be an adjustment and also if you go back to ITF later. I would think it would make you more rounded to get both.

It is up to the master instructor where he places you or what you wear. Just go with the flow as at green you are still pretty much a beginner and it is all good to learn. TW

Thank you TigerWoman

I took a look at some books over the weekend for WTF forms and they certainly seemed much simpler than the forms I have done until now (Chon Ji, Dan-Gun, Do-San, Won-Hyo). I would be interested in knowing more about where the differences in style originate and why the forms are so different (although I did notice that Koryo is central to both systems as 1st dan?) Equally, how is the kicking style different? Perhaps these questions seem a little dumb but I had not considered them until now, so any new information would be much appreciated. I am not interested in the political flare that seems to originate everytime the ITF vs. WTF issue comes up though.

With regards to breaking, I could not be more in agreement. I have done breaking in my two previous tests, and for instance my failure to do my hand break properly in my previous test actually allowed me to realize that I had to work on that particular technique much more. I trained with that technique in mind and voila! My next break was clean and it just felt beautiful after 2 months of focusing on it, so I definately agree that breaking can provide a measurement of where your technique stands even at my low level of knowledge and practice. I wish my new school will place equal emphasis on breaking whether it is one style or the other!

Cheers,
A.T.

 

[Marginal]

While I will not mention the name of my school, Marginal, I can only say it is a very well respected school and our Sa Bu Nim is one of the most respected in the US at the national level. The reason why he teaches the traditional ITF patterns is because that is the way he was taught by his own master.

How ITF forms are done can vary widely in schools that aren't part of the ITF. There are a variety of reasons for this, but a lot of it will stem from when the school broke away from the ITF, and the amount of care put into the instruction. (This is just a generialization, not an indictment of your school or instructor.) Seeing early ITF training films was very informative to me. The cadence was completely different, as was some of the technique interpretation, and how the stance transitions etc are handled.

I'm simply saying that doing ITF forms doesn't make an ITF school. (Which you already stated.) Tigerwoman practices ITF forms from time to time as well. She's still under the WTF umbrella, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some drift in how the patterns are performed in her school vs how they're done in an ITF school.

One example of this... Koryo is not practiced in the ITF. It's a WTF pattern, and it's a WTF testing requirement, which is what plants it in among the ITF patterns in your school. Testing pattern for advancement to 1st dan is Choong Moo in the ITF. Kwang Gae, Po Eun, and Gae Baek are 1st dan ITF patterns.

On the kicking, there are at least five threads about differences between kicking between the respective orgs. I'm sure the search feature would pull 'em up without sparking further political debate.

 

[ave_turuta]

How ITF forms are done can vary widely in schools that aren't part of the ITF. There are a variety of reasons for this, but a lot of it will stem from when the school broke away from the ITF, and the amount of care put into the instruction. (This is just a generialization, not an indictment of your school or instructor.) Seeing early ITF training films was very informative to me. The cadence was completely different, as was some of the technique interpretation, and how the stance transitions etc are handled.

I'm simply saying that doing ITF forms doesn't make an ITF school. (Which you already stated.) Tigerwoman practices ITF forms from time to time as well. She's still under the WTF umbrella, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some drift in how the patterns are performed in her school vs how they're done in an ITF school.

One example of this... Koryo is not practiced in the ITF. It's a WTF pattern, and it's a WTF testing requirement, which is what plants it in among the ITF patterns in your school. Testing pattern for advancement to 1st dan is Choong Moo in the ITF. Kwang Gae, Po Eun, and Gae Baek are 1st dan ITF patterns.

On the kicking, there are at least five threads about differences between kicking between the respective orgs. I'm sure the search feature would pull 'em up without sparking further political debate.

Thank you Marginal! As always, very informative

I will try to pull those posts as you suggest.

A.T.

 

[Yeti]

I had to do the same thing you are doing (except the overseas part) when I moved out of state a few years back. I was a purple belt in an ITF school and transfered to a WTF school at my new location.

When I walked in I discussed my situation with the instructors and, since I didn't know the forms, one-steps and format of the class, we agreed to start me as a yellow belt. On the one hand, it was a bit deflating to be "demoted" back to yellow, but in the end, rank is really unimportant and it was a great opportunity for me to re-train my basics...stances, blocks, strikes, kicks, etc. So don't think of it as starting over. Just think of it as a chance to strengthen the foundation of TKD and when you begin to advance through the WTF rank structure, you'll be that much better off.

Good luck with the move.

 

[karatekid1975]

I agree with Yeti and most here. Don't worry about rank (I kinda know you don't though). I went from Tang Soo Do (I was fresh to MA then) to TKD. I started at white belt. At the time I didn't agree with it. But My instructor said that I can advance fast to my previous rank. Guess what? I was the one that chose to slow down (before I got there). TKD is different from TSD. and there was a lot to learn. So I backed off. Smart move

Just go in there and wear the white belt and learn the moves right instead of doing the "crash course" thing like I did to get to your previous rank. It's much easier to start over

As far as the WTF and ITF thing, I do WTF and I never did ITF, so I can't really help you there. All I know that the forms are different.

 

[Mariel Maeso]

Let me tell you that the ranks don't matter much at all. I am a Black Belt in Kajukenbo but I recently started taking classes in Hapkido so it don't matter to me that I start using a white belt again. But as the members tell you before ask the new instructor what he thinks.

 

[TigerWoman]

I'm simply saying that doing ITF forms doesn't make an ITF school. (Which you already stated.) Tigerwoman practices ITF forms from time to time as well. She's still under the WTF umbrella, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some drift in how the patterns are performed in her school vs how they're done in an ITF school.

Ave Turuta:
My master learned from an ITF master, he had more than one master. He is a stickler for details. As far as comparison, from what I've watched at open tournaments, the main difference lies in the kicking technique. We snap, they sinewave etc. etc...enough on that! Yes, checkout the past threads. We still don't sinewave, but I've had to relearn alot of ITF technique that is different than WTF. And I practice ITF forms three times a week including the WTF forms, otherwise I forget them, and their details. All black belts in our org are required ten ITF forms in addition, to get to second dan. For third, I have to be able to direct someone without doing the form plus learn more forms and demonstrate all. Its all good, in the end you choose what works for you. TW

 

[Miles]

When I was younger, I had the opportunity of transferring to different schools and starting over as a white belt. In each case, I did not even mention I had already attained black belt-didn't have to (the instructors can tell in about 3 minutes) and it didn't matter to the instructors or to me.

Enjoy the differences in teaching styles and perhaps training emphasis. Look at it as an opportunity to learn something new.

Good luck with the move!

Miles

 

[ave_turuta]

Ave Turuta:
My master learned from an ITF master, he had more than one master. He is a stickler for details. As far as comparison, from what I've watched at open tournaments, the main difference lies in the kicking technique. We snap, they sinewave etc. etc...enough on that! Yes, checkout the past threads. We still don't sinewave, but I've had to relearn alot of ITF technique that is different than WTF. And I practice ITF forms three times a week including the WTF forms, otherwise I forget them, and their details. All black belts in our org are required ten ITF forms in addition, to get to second dan. For third, I have to be able to direct someone without doing the form plus learn more forms and demonstrate all. Its all good, in the end you choose what works for you. TW

Thanks Tiger Woman!

By now I know that in our school we do ITF forms but practice Olympic-style sparring. We also place great emphasis on board breaking and other technical things, while doing a lot of physical work in general and a lot of drills (I assume this to be the case for most schools, right?) I know black belts must learn three ITF forms and one WTF form per rank level, but I am not sure what those forms are since I am not aware of their names yet (sometimes while I am training and practicing my forms I sort of watch over my shoulder and I hear koryo this and kwang gae that, and other names, hehehe, but that's about it!)

Anyway it is, I'll just enjoy the ride

and get as much as I can from it.

Cheers,

A.T.

 

[Marginal]

Ave Turuta:
My master learned from an ITF master, he had more than one master. He is a stickler for details. As far as comparison, from what I've watched at open tournaments, the main difference lies in the kicking technique. We snap, they sinewave etc. etc...enough on that!

Yeah, I was mainly thinking of the older discussion on Po Eun's pressing kicks. Wasn't political but it illustrates how perceptions of a pattern technique can drift. I'd be surprised if Sine wave was demonstrated in a WTF school. (There was a minor exodus among ITF instructors etc when it was introduced.)

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

I suppose that if you're a color belt in one TKD system and you move to another TKD system then giving up your color, gup rank wouldn't be too much of a stretch given that the poomse/hyungs, one-steps, combination hand techs, etc., etc., and for that matter pretty much the curriculums are different from dojang to dojang. WTF or ITF, each school has their own training regmine.

But, let me pose this question to you other TKD practitioners here. What if you've already been training for years and achieved black belt status? Do you think that we should be expected to go back down to white belt if we transfer federations?

Taekwondo is taekwondo no matter where you train, and where you learn the art. It's only a bit different given the federation you're associated with, and the dojang where you learn this MA... :asian: