Training log.

[Kframe]

Class 2.

Today we reviewed the bowing in/bowing out ritual. After that we went through some stretching and breathing. Then we reviewed all the Kamae(postures). The Aruki movements will take me some time to learn. Some of the kamae are different. The bear posture was kinda cool, reminded me in a way of the old school Muay Boran stance..

We then reviewed the 15(16 if you include the Ki fist) fists. Going through all of this, practicing each one took up most of the class time for the beginner class.

He reviewed all the material I need to work on and be decent in, before I can get promoted to 9th.

Edit to add. Somethings im confused on. Firstly, there are 2 jodan ukes? One is a posture that looks like the classic karate block, the other is the circular back fist that is used in some of the san shin no kata. What is the story there? Sensei said that a lot of these stances are something we will not be holding, but transitioning through.(I understand that) Is this just one of those transitory defensive postures?

Second question, and he explained it. Was the existence of 2 distinct Ichimonji no kamae. One is the classic one, with the weight to rear, and rear foot pointing off back and away. To provide a avenue of escape. The one that is mainly used here is different. Its weight forward, with the rear foot pointing at a angle forward.

Sensei said that Hiroshi Nagase Sensei was more "combative" and favored a weight forward ichimonji, it was more aggressive(I guess attack or move forward oriented) then the "defensive" classic ichimonji. Any thoughts on this difference in stance? I can feel the difference in my legs, and how each style effects movement. One does feel defensive and one does feel aggressive.

Can anyone give me some background on Hiroshi Nagase Sensei? I tried a Google search but not much comes up.

I learned that my Sensei, likes to train. A lot. He apparently spends his off days getting trained, then comes up on class day and trains us. Its nice that he is keeping up with his training..

Thanks for any input guys.

 

[Chris Parker]

Class 2.

Today we reviewed the bowing in/bowing out ritual. After that we went through some stretching and breathing. Then we reviewed all the Kamae(postures). The Aruki movements will take me some time to learn. Some of the kamae are different. The bear posture was kinda cool, reminded me in a way of the old school Muay Boran stance..

Hmm... "all" the kamae? That'd take a bit... I'm going to assume you mean all the ones in the Ten Chi Jin, based on your mention of the 16 strikes in a bit... there's a lot more than that, when you get into it. Oh, and I'd be wary of making any connections between similar looking postures from different arts. Hoko no Kamae isn't really like a Muay Boran stance at all, really. And, to let you know, Hoko no Kamae doesn't mean "bear" posture... that's more a nickname based on the appearance being related to the posture of a standing bear... it actually means "embracing your surroundings"... and has quite a different feel and tactical reasoning behind it.

We then reviewed the 15(16 if you include the Ki fist) fists. Going through all of this, practicing each one took up most of the class time for the beginner class.

He reviewed all the material I need to work on and be decent in, before I can get promoted to 9th.

Hmm, the "ki" fist? Typically, the Hokken Juroppo (16 Treasure Fists, for want of a better translation), as listed in the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki, are: Kikaku Ken (Zu Tsuki), Shukki Ken, Fudo Ken/Nio Ken/Kongo Ken, Kiten Ken/Shuto Ken, Shitan Ken, Shako Ken/Chin Ken, Shito Ken/Boshi Ken/Yubi Ken, Shikan Ken, Koppo Ken, Happa Ken, Sokuyaku Ken/Keri, Sokki Ken/Keri, Sokugyaku Ken/Keri, Taiken, and Shizen Ken. Some of these have alternate names/applications/slight variations depending on the Ryu-ha, some are specific surfaces, some are more conceptual in their ideas, and so on.

Edit to add. Somethings im confused on. Firstly, there are 2 jodan ukes? One is a posture that looks like the classic karate block, the other is the circular back fist that is used in some of the san shin no kata. What is the story there? Sensei said that a lot of these stances are something we will not be holding, but transitioning through.(I understand that) Is this just one of those transitory defensive postures?

There's a lot more than two... but, to keep it simple, there's a knuckle/backfist method, and there's a forearm block method. Then there's different applications and mechanics taught depending on the Ryu itself... a Gyokko Ryu Uke Nagashi is different to one from Kukishinden Ryu, and very different to Shinden Fudo Ryu or Takagi Yoshin Ryu (also different to each other, of course), and so on. "Jodan Uke" simply means "receiving (an attack) at a high level". As for the rest (transitioning), well, without seeing exactly what you were being shown, it might be a yes, it might be a no... the amount of variation that exists within the total scope of these arts means that we really don't know exactly what you've been shown....

Second question, and he explained it. Was the existence of 2 distinct Ichimonji no kamae. One is the classic one, with the weight to rear, and rear foot pointing off back and away. To provide a avenue of escape. The one that is mainly used here is different. Its weight forward, with the rear foot pointing at a angle forward.

Hmm, not sure about that second one... there are certainly weight forward forms and kamae, but with the rear foot pointing/angled forward? Kinda goes against the way the footwork works, and why... As far as there being two distinct Ichimonji no Kamae, there's more than that...

Sensei said that Hiroshi Nagase Sensei was more "combative" and favored a weight forward ichimonji, it was more aggressive(I guess attack or move forward oriented) then the "defensive" classic ichimonji. Any thoughts on this difference in stance? I can feel the difference in my legs, and how each style effects movement. One does feel defensive and one does feel aggressive.

Hmm... yes, there are thoughts on it... Personally, I don't see either as either defensive or offensive... that's not really Ichimonji no Kamae (Gyokko Ryu)'s purpose...

Honestly, this is one of my issues with the way things are sometimes done in the Bujinkan... there might be a particular personality preference to do one thing or another, even when it goes against the Ryu in question teaches...

Can anyone give me some background on Hiroshi Nagase Sensei? I tried a Google search but not much comes up.

I'll let Bujinkan members answer that, if they wish... but I will say that most, if not all, of the Japanese seniors and Shihan are rather private people who don't put much of themselves out publicly. The reasoning (and I agree with them) is that, well, if you know them (personally), then the aspects of their life can mean something to you... if you don't, then why should you know? So, to get some idea of what he's like, talk to your instructor (who is a student of Nagase Sensei, yes?), or wait and develop a relationship with him yourself.

I learned that my Sensei, likes to train. A lot. He apparently spends his off days getting trained, then comes up on class day and trains us. Its nice that he is keeping up with his training..

Thanks for any input guys.

Cool.

 

[Kframe]

I thought the purpose of ichimonji was to use the lead hand to keep space between you and the opponent. The way the feet and weight are positioned will determine which directions you can more easily move. I know this from my time in MMA and boxing.. The position of the feet and weight makes moving in certain directions easier then other directions.

Did I wander into a school teaching watered down Taijutsu?

I know that the Genbukan and jinekan have tighter QC, if they existed in a reasonable distance I would have gone there instead..

 

[jks9199]

I suspect that Kframe is getting or seeing the level 1 version or interpretation, and Chris is looking deeper. And that Kframe, being on his second class, may just have misunderstood or overgeneralized a statement or explanation give, too.

I'll second Chris's advice to be cautious about generalizing stances from one style to another. Boxing, MMA, and Muay Thai/Muay Boran have developed stances around their particular situations, goals, and strategies. The modern basic boxing stance, for example, is built around the modern rules of boxing (targets limited to the front and sides of the upper body, above the belt, using comparatively large, padded gloves), while an MMA stance is adjusted to deal with the wrestling, grappling, and takedowns. The stances in the Bujinkan are developed for particular purposes and strategies in the same way...

 

[Kframe]

Well im not going to rush to any judgments, seeing as I don't know enough about the various ryu. Maybe there is a reason that Ichimonji was altered. He did say that they teach both, but in practice endup using the more weighted forward/rear foot pointed forward more. He did make mention that, the classic ichimonji was the way they used to train, but as time progressed things changed. He makes frequent reference to the way things used to be.

I don't doubt his prowess as a martial artist, he moves like someone who is experienced and skilled. You can just see it in the smoothness of his actions compared to the green belts, or even the low level black belt that came to train on Saturday. OF course the level of difference between the greens and the low level black belt was immense as well.

I like to know details, so it will be a fun journey for me to discover the how's and why's of the classical ichimonji. Ill have to find my own understanding of this art anyways, and seeing as how important ichimonji is, I might as well start there..

 

[Kframe]

I think this video will help, to understand what im seeing.

That animation is how I observe them doing the Ichimonji during the practice of the higher belts, and how I was taught it. It is different then this picture, https://www.google.com/search?q=ich...fPqQGG8oC4Aw&ved=0CC0Q9QEwAQ&biw=1366&bih=605 , that I was told was the way it used to be taught.

Hopefully that will clear up my question.

 

[Chris Parker]

I thought the purpose of ichimonji was to use the lead hand to keep space between you and the opponent.

Hmm... that's part of the reason for the lead arm... it's not the purpose of Ichimonji.... but, of course, that gets into the idea of "which Ichimonji?"... but I'm getting ahead of myself...

The way the feet and weight are positioned will determine which directions you can more easily move. I know this from my time in MMA and boxing.. The position of the feet and weight makes moving in certain directions easier then other directions.

Partially, yeah. It's also to do with weight transference into strikes/blocks/throws etc, as well as the range of said actions, and so on....

Did I wander into a school teaching watered down Taijutsu?

No idea.

I know that the Genbukan and jinekan have tighter QC, if they existed in a reasonable distance I would have gone there instead..

You're starting to focus on possible negatives again... forget them. If you constantly think about what could be elsewhere, you'll miss what's in front of you.

I suspect that Kframe is getting or seeing the level 1 version or interpretation, and Chris is looking deeper. And that Kframe, being on his second class, may just have misunderstood or overgeneralized a statement or explanation give, too.

I'll second Chris's advice to be cautious about generalizing stances from one style to another. Boxing, MMA, and Muay Thai/Muay Boran have developed stances around their particular situations, goals, and strategies. The modern basic boxing stance, for example, is built around the modern rules of boxing (targets limited to the front and sides of the upper body, above the belt, using comparatively large, padded gloves), while an MMA stance is adjusted to deal with the wrestling, grappling, and takedowns. The stances in the Bujinkan are developed for particular purposes and strategies in the same way...

Yep... and, just to add to that, the older-style boxing posture (the one with the arms quite extended, with the fists turned to face your palms back towards yourself that looks so comical today) had it's own very good reasons as well... namely that boxing back then included quite a lot of aspects that weren't just punching, including throws, clinching, and more... the extended arms were to prevent the opponent getting close enough to achieve them.

Well im not going to rush to any judgments, seeing as I don't know enough about the various ryu. Maybe there is a reason that Ichimonji was altered. He did say that they teach both, but in practice endup using the more weighted forward/rear foot pointed forward more. He did make mention that, the classic ichimonji was the way they used to train, but as time progressed things changed. He makes frequent reference to the way things used to be.

I don't doubt his prowess as a martial artist, he moves like someone who is experienced and skilled. You can just see it in the smoothness of his actions compared to the green belts, or even the low level black belt that came to train on Saturday. OF course the level of difference between the greens and the low level black belt was immense as well.

Okay.

I like to know details, so it will be a fun journey for me to discover the how's and why's of the classical ichimonji. Ill have to find my own understanding of this art anyways, and seeing as how important ichimonji is, I might as well start there..

You won't get it with any words on a forum, though. You'll get it through exposure and experience in your training, and through the descriptions and understanding of your instructor. He'll be able to see where your posture shows your understanding is off, and offer the corrections you'll need to understand it.

That said....

I think this video will help, to understand what im seeing.

That animation is how I observe them doing the Ichimonji during the practice of the higher belts, and how I was taught it. It is different then this picture, https://www.google.com/search?q=ich...fPqQGG8oC4Aw&ved=0CC0Q9QEwAQ&biw=1366&bih=605 , that I was told was the way it used to be taught.

Hopefully that will clear up my question.

Right. That form of Ichimonji is from Togakure Ryu, and is a minor kamae found there. It's actually more like Koto Ryu's Seigan no Kamae in form (but not attitude), and the better one to understand it properly is the longer, deeper form in the picture. To make that more "aggressive" is to miss the point of the kamae's reasoning in the ryu itself... but that can be fine in the context of Budo Taijutsu, where the ryu's individual reasoning takes a definite back seat.

Interestingly enough, although it's not the form that Ichimonji takes in Gyokko Ryu, where it's most prominent usage comes from (in the Kihon Happo etc), it was what was presented as being "the" Ichimonji no Kamae by Hayes when he first came back from Japan. Gyokko Ryu's Ichimonji is quite different in tactical application and strategic mindset, and is seen here at about 2:37 -

For the most part, that's what most will think of when you mention "Ichimonji no Kamae"... as I said, far more than just two forms of it... Koto Ryu has a form, as well as Gyokko Ryu's and Togakure Ryu's (all different, although sharing a number of similarities)... then there's the forms of Hira Ichimonji as well... both unarmed and armed with various weapons....

 

[Kframe]

Day three. Last day of the year for training.

Today we had Sampai Tim teaching class. The other white belt and the green belt came as well. We bowed in and he did explain the formality that some teachers like.

After that we did the rolls. We did the forward and side rolls, the back roll and on other rolling drill involving rolling in a few directions. Forward and Left. As was expected I was unable to do the Goho kaiten.(backwards roll). After class, I asked for advice and he gave some, but was honest in that my gut was what was holding me back as I was unable to bring my legs in as far as they need to be. He said they will be able to modify the things we do that involve the back roll, but that until im fit enough to do it, i wont get thrown as hard that direction. I asked how long it would be before my inability to back roll, would interfere with my development. He said that its not a big deal, that they don't really start beating you up till 1st dan. The comment was said tongue in cheek, but i get the gist of what he was saying.

This gives me more motiviation as im half way to my 180lbs weight lost goal. I want to experience the full art, not some modified for a beached whale version of it. (talking about my self, i mean no offense to any other people of girth reading this)

More on the 3 basic sword evasion drills we did.. This was my first time actually doing the rolls from a standing position. Nearly all of the rolls we did were used, except the back roll. It was a nice shock to see that i was able to do the rolls from standing. In a decidedly slow and crude way but still i was able to do them. It wasn't nearly as uncomfortable as i thought it would be..

I did get some additional correction on the side roll. I tried to "launch" my self and while i did in fact roll, i landed with a audible thud on the tatami. He Said that is to be avoided as it would be bad for my health if done on a non padded surface. I feel like a big log in a forest rolling, when i do the side roll.

After that we did the various Aruki tsuki drills, both forward and backward. This is going to require much home practice. Forward is easier then backwards. I wonder if these drills are one of those directly combat applicable drills. They contain a parry, and a stop sign check, as well as a movement that can either be offensive or defensive.(based on my feeling of it, it feels like a jodan uke, but doesn't move in a circular path, but more like a back fist, side to side)

We did the punching drill in both directions. Step forward with rear foot, fore foot slides back, parry with the left hand, punch with the right, repeated on the left side as well. Then the same thing backwards..

Then we worked on zenpo geri. I put much time into this at home and i feel i did good with this kick. Though i feel i need to try to not go as high and risk my own kamae due to my flexability or lack there off.

We finished with Oni Kudakai. Had a minor discussion about the similarities and differences between the MMA versions and this version. Was a good discussion.

After that we bowed out and my class was finished.

Edit to add. Had a great discussion after class. I we talked about the stark differences from a combat martial art, and mma. I told them that the feel, from just the few class's I have done, definitely feels different. I cant really explain it, but from the drills and movements I have practiced, it "feels" different. We had a lovely discussion on the differences of the feel and the usage of both arts.

My home practice is helping, i need to start working on other aspects and improve them. I spent a inordinate amount of time on a few things.

Looking forward to our Christmas get together..

 

[jks9199]

I spent a inordinate amount of time on a few things.

That's kind of normal as a beginner...

(By the way, it's spelled sempai when transferred into the English alphabet commonly...)

 

[Kframe]

Well I found that I was nearly obsessed with learning zenpo geri. The front kick in this art is very different then what im used to in MMA. I was taught a muay thai teep and a generic "karate style" front snap kick. They don't like the muay thai style teep, because they feel it puts the kicker off balance, and in armor and pack that is death.(explanation as I was given it) So being that I stank so bad at it, practicing it made up ALOT of my home practice.

Right now, I need to spend my home time on the punching drills and the Aruki tsuki drills, as I stink on ice badly.

 

[Hatsie]

This gives me more motiviation as im half way to my 180lbs weight lost goal. I want to experience the full art, not some modified for a beached whale version of it. (talking about my self, i mean no offense to any other people of girth reading this)

98 % of bujinkaners cringe and head to the fridge for comfort feeding!

Well done on your personal goals though, and glad your enjoying the training.

The backwards roll is a bit of a tough nut to crack though, it did take me a fair while to do a reasonable approximation of it I think it's because the 'line' you roll through ( imaginary linear contact point your body touches ground, if you follow me) has to be quite precise, or you'll do a sort of horrible side flop. You'll get it!

the 'checking block' isn't likely a block at all, as is usually the case, likely just a 'cover', done after ( split second) you evade, and as you enter. In the bujinkan you always want 'something' between you and the opponent, be that a weapon,someone else or in this case your forearm. Don't focus too much on it as it will likely change with your instructors mood or whats coming out of Japan/ yearly theme. Ichi monji variants were popular for a while.

Good luck

 

[Kframe]

Hatsie are you talking about the weird Parry+stop sign block I am doing with the aruki tsuki drills or the weird back fist thingy?

 

[Rokuta]

Hey Kframe,

Koho Kaiten was very hard for me when I began, yet Tachi Nagare was easier. :/ Go figure. I started at 230 and am in the 190s now, so I can appreciate the sentiment of feeling like a beached whale while trying to execute any of the rolls. It gets easier the longer you go on. You'll be amazed how much your taisubaki can improve in a short time. Looking forward to hearing more about your progress.

 

[Kframe]

Addendum to Day three log.

I didn't think to include this in it, but figured Id mention it. During our Oni Kudakai drill, I got a correction for something that was totally shocking for me. I was told to not help uke up after he is tossed.(or taken down in any way, I had been helping up my partner after each takedown) I was told it develops bad habits for self defense. I was shocked by this, as every were I have trained, helping up your training partner was rule number one. He also said that we don't always release immediately from taps. He wants us to make sure the situation is safe for us to do so.(either our attacker is dispatched or we have subdued them some how) This was also shocking for me as the rule to respect the tap was paramount everywere else..

I understand what they are saying but I felt really disrespectful and like a douche bag for not helping up my training partner. Not respecting taps is gonna feel odd as hell to.

 

[jks9199]

Addendum to Day three log.

I didn't think to include this in it, but figured Id mention it. During our Oni Kudakai drill, I got a correction for something that was totally shocking for me. I was told to not help uke up after he is tossed.(or taken down in any way, I had been helping up my partner after each takedown) I was told it develops bad habits for self defense. I was shocked by this, as every were I have trained, helping up your training partner was rule number one. He also said that we don't always release immediately from taps. He wants us to make sure the situation is safe for us to do so.(either our attacker is dispatched or we have subdued them some how) This was also shocking for me as the rule to respect the tap was paramount everywere else..

I understand what they are saying but I felt really disrespectful and like a douche bag for not helping up my training partner. Not respecting taps is gonna feel odd as hell to.

That's a very legitimate concern. There's a story of a cop who practiced gun disarms extensively, and got so good that he could really rely on his disarm. One day, a robber approaches and points a gun at him. Oh, boy! Lickety split -- he's taken the gun away from the bad guy. And, just like he'd done thousands of times in training and practice -- he hands the gun back to the rather stunned robber. Fortunately, the disarm worked just as fast the second time... but it really could have ended tragically.

I'm not so sure what you're saying about the tap though; you might want to get some more clarification on that before you hold someone past a tap.

 

[Kframe]

He did say that with regards to taps, that he didn't want us to just release it immediately. Wants us to make sure the situation is resolved first.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Kframe,

To explain about not necessarily immediately releasing from a tapping a bit more, you need to realize that the reason for a tap in our systems is actually quite different to that found in something like MMA or BJJ. In those arts, tapping is an indication that you can't escape, it's quite literally a submission to the opponents technique. You tap only when there's no other option. This is the way things work in a competitive system, but not in a skill-training methodology. For us, tapping is a feedback loop... it's a way of telling you that you've applied the action effectively (it's working the way it's meant to, it's tight, and is effecting you the way it's meant to, such as locking up various or multiple joints, immobilizing you on the ground, etc). Commonly, tapping happens before damage, when discomfort/pain is achieved (depending on the receivers level, of course). As a result, tapping means "yeah, that's it". You don't continue to crank things once their applied to a tap, but by the same token, you don't just let go, either.

So why don't you just let go? Well, it's the same reason you don't help up your partner... or hand them back their weapon.... in kata, the opponent is there, in a real way, to try to kill you (depending on the kata, of course). Don't give them more of a chance than they already have. A fundamental aspect of kata practice in Koryu (far from consistently found in the Bujinkan, though) is the concept of Zanshin. This literally means "lingering mind", and refers to a form of awareness after the action... and ensures that, even after the "fight", you don't drop your guard and give the opponent another chance to attack. Different systems deal with this differently (zanshin in Koto Ryu is different to zanshin in Takagi Yoshin Ryu, which is different to the way it's expressed in Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu [interestingly, different again for SFR Jutaijutsu...], and so on), but the core concept is the same. On the same topic, the 16th DaiShihan of Sosuishi Ryu was quoted as saying that "kata should be done with an air of distrust"....

With all that said, I don't want to appear to discourage you from sharing here, but I might ask if you've asked your instructor if he minds having his class methods, structure, and design put out publicly like this... especially when it opens it up for potential criticism, either through a lack of experience on your part, or misunderstanding on behalf of those who aren't familiar with the arts in question. If he's fine with it, all good. If you haven't asked, I would (for instance, if I came across one of my guys giving blow-by-blow accounts of my classes, they'd be talked to pretty quickly, and it would be suggested [potentially not that subtly] that it isn't really what I'd like to have happen...).

 

[Kframe]

I was using this thread as way to document a newbs journey through this art for other newbs and non newbs to read. I don't know why this would cuase any consternation. Ill ask, however I don't see it as a problem. If your offering quality training then there is no need to hide anything.

How ever. Seeing as I don't have explicit permission to post what amounts to a blog of my experiences ill discontinue it.
I guess the biggest reason I had for posting in this section just went up in flames.

Why is it that mma coachs don't give to flying craps about this kind of training log, yet tma'ists do?

 

[Chris Parker]

This isn't MMA. There's a different mentality. Some of the Ryu have specific rules about what can or cannot be shared, for example. Additionally, with the freedom found in the Bujinkan, each class is more a reflection of the teacher than of the art, in a very real way, so you're exposing your teacher and their values/beliefs/perceptions in a way you might not realise. The class structure he chooses is the class structure he chooses, not the same as anywhere else. It is, in a sense, his intellectual property. And, honestly, I wouldn't be too concerned that what he's offering isn't quality, I'd be more concerned with the way he's being presented publically, which might be rather inaccurate, due to, as mentioned, your own lack of experience. You're three classes in, really, and almost every post has some kind of "I don't get it, why is this this way?" question... which might be read as your teacher not being able to explain things well (as an example... there are other things).

I would also state that there is a real difference between what is shown publically and what is shown more privately... I will happily give a range of aspects of my classes to the public forum, but it's only a small percentage of what is seen in my classes themselves. I have no reason to offer my own work to others... for a variety of reasons.

But I will restate for emphasis that I didn't want to discourage your sharing, just to ensure you're not putting your foot in anything with your new teacher. Honestly, I'd run it by them first... they'll likely say it's fine, especially at such and early (and basic) level. Just check first. Kind of a golden rule in Japanese arts there....

 

[Kframe]

Point taken.