Training half of martial arts bugs me.

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes but it doesn't include the bit that makes it a different point.

That is why I did the whole thing with the brackets.

Ok, I guess.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is what you want though. Which is the difference. If you have decided that a certain method is important for your students development you really should make a push for that.

If you remember that rob grufridda interview he comes up with this idea that learning a skill requires effort or adversity. Especially learning a fighting skill like self defense.

Otherwise they are not learning that skill.

I put it to you that there was no competition for your students to compete in.

There was no foreseeable pathway that would have led them to this competition.

There are many steps you could have taken before you threw your hands up in the air and said it was the students.

You’re making quite a few assumptions about both my attitude and my actions. Without really bothering to inquire about either.

 

[Steve]

So it is the businesses responsibility to inform the student, Before they ever go to a class, what/how/when/why the class is about? It is the student/persons job to be informed and know to a reasonable degree what they are buying. Otherwise they are just being gullible and foolish. It is not unusual for a person to have to try a class/product for a time to learn whether it is what they were looking for.

Come on, man. You often find yourself on the same side of an argument as con artists? Give me a break.

 

[dvcochran]

Come on, man. You often find yourself on the same side of an argument as con artists? Give me a break.

How you get con artist out of expecting people to be informed says a lot about you. Apparently in your world it is everyone else's responsibility except yours. Based on many of your posts I don't find that surprising at all.
Really, really not sure where your moral compass points.

 

[Steve]

How you get con artist out of expecting people to be informed says a lot about you. Apparently in your world it is everyone else's responsibility except yours. Based on many of your posts I don't find that surprising at all.
Really, really not sure where your moral compass points.

You're the dude who thinks selling deceptive products is on the consumer. Lol. You're being ridiculous.

you said:

So it is the businesses responsibility to inform the student, Before they ever go to a class, what/how/when/why the class is about?

the answer is, yes. Absolutely. It’s astounding you think otherwise. And I’m the guy with a questionable moral compass? Yeah, okay.

It is the student/persons job to be informed and know to a reasonable degree what they are buying.

and how, pray tell, does one do this if the business is being cagey or otherwise misrepresenting itself?

Otherwise they are just being gullible and foolish. It is not unusual for a person to have to try a class/product for a time to learn whether it is what they were looking for.

what? Come on. If I hire an electrician, I guess it’s on me if they misrepresent themselves. Or if I enroll in a pottery class and they don’t actually teach how to make pottery. Or that weight loss program. I guess it’s buyer beware. Am i right?

and at the end of the day, as usual, all you have is snark and personal insults. Pretty lame.

 

[dvcochran]

You're the dude who thinks selling deceptive products is on the consumer. Lol. You're being ridiculous.

you said: the answer is, yes. Absolutely. It’s astounding you think otherwise. And I’m the guy with a questionable moral compass? Yeah, okay.and how, pray tell, does one do this if the business is being cagey or otherwise misrepresenting itself? what? Come on. If I hire an electrician, I guess it’s on me if they misrepresent themselves. Or if I enroll in a pottery class and they don’t actually teach how to make pottery. Or that weight loss program. I guess it’s buyer beware. Am i right?

and at the end of the day, as usual, all you have is snark and personal insults. Pretty lame.

Again, you just don't hear yourself and endlessly try to put the blame/excuse on someone else. You seem to have no concept of personal accountability.

There is this incredible thing called the internet. It is a fountain of information that consumers can use to become more informed about virtually anything. It is a powerful tool, assuming you are competent enough to use it.
The average person has a pier group, coworkers, or are at least involved enough in their community to know the good/better businesses from the bad/worse in any genre. Use the resources in front of you.

Yes, it is buyer beware in the context that it is the buyers job to be as informed as possible. You fall into and seem to even want to be the prey in the "There is a sucker born every minute" quote.

So to answer your question with a question; there are five pottery classes in your neighborhood. How do you choose which one to use? What methodology do you take to decide?
It sounds like you take the Pollyanna approach whereas you just show up at the first one fully knowing you are getting the best, most elite service out there. How wise or realistic is that?
Of course it is natural to do at least cursory research.
Plan the plan.

 

[Steve]

Again, you just don't hear yourself and endlessly try to put the blame/excuse on someone else. You seem to have no concept of personal accountability.

There is this incredible thing called the internet. It is a fountain of information that consumers can use to become more informed about virtually anything. It is a powerful tool, assuming you are competent enough to use it.
The average person has a pier group, coworkers, or are at least involved enough in their community to know the good/better businesses from the bad/worse in any genre. Use the resources in front of you.

Yes, it is buyer beware in the context that it is the buyers job to be as informed as possible. You fall into and seem to even want to be the prey in the "There is a sucker born every minute" quote.

So to answer your question with a question; there are five pottery classes in your neighborhood. How do you choose which one to use? What methodology do you take to decide?
It sounds like you take the Pollyanna approach whereas you just show up at the first one fully knowing you are getting the best, most elite service out there. How wise or realistic is that?
Of course it is natural to do at least cursory research.
Plan the plan.

Ugh. You're kind of a one trick pony. Insult. Miss the point. Say something ridiculous. Insult.

Mr. moral compass' answer to the question of whether a business should deliver what they say they will deliver is Yelp. If you're looking for good pho, sure. That might help. But that doesn't excuse the business

For a guy who alleges to be all about accountability, I don't get why the business owner need not be accountable at all. Fortunately, consumers have some legal protections. You sound like a real fan of going back to the era of snake oil salesmen.

Speaking of listening to oneself, please reread your posts. You put all accountability on the lay person, and zero on the "expert ". This is exactly how con artists work. If that's really the side you're on, please don't preach to me about moral compass.

 

[drop bear]

You’re making quite a few assumptions about both my attitude and my actions. Without really bothering to inquire about either.

He says on page 35 of this thread.

 

[drop bear]

Again, you just don't hear yourself and endlessly try to put the blame/excuse on someone else. You seem to have no concept of personal accountability.

There is this incredible thing called the internet. It is a fountain of information that consumers can use to become more informed about virtually anything. It is a powerful tool, assuming you are competent enough to use it.
The average person has a pier group, coworkers, or are at least involved enough in their community to know the good/better businesses from the bad/worse in any genre. Use the resources in front of you.

Yes, it is buyer beware in the context that it is the buyers job to be as informed as possible. You fall into and seem to even want to be the prey in the "There is a sucker born every minute" quote.

So to answer your question with a question; there are five pottery classes in your neighborhood. How do you choose which one to use? What methodology do you take to decide?
It sounds like you take the Pollyanna approach whereas you just show up at the first one fully knowing you are getting the best, most elite service out there. How wise or realistic is that?
Of course it is natural to do at least cursory research.
Plan the plan.

This is precisely why I post about methods on how determine truth from fiction. And faith based martial arts from evidence based martial arts.

It arms the martial artist with the tools to critical think through an industry that is set up to promote con artists and spout misinformation.

This is why asking for evidence, asking to see sparring, asking for real proof techniques work is so important.

And the ultimate reason hiding these things from people is so suspicious.

There are martial arts that are open and accountable and there are martial arts that are not.

The ones that are not will always sound better because fantasy is much more appealing than fact.

It is up to us to recognize that.

 

[dvcochran]

This is precisely why I post about methods on how determine truth from fiction. And faith based martial arts from evidence based martial arts.

It arms the martial artist with the tools to critical think through an industry that is set up to promote con artists and spout misinformation.

This is why asking for evidence, asking to see sparring, asking for real proof techniques work is so important.

And the ultimate reason hiding these things from people is so suspicious.

There are martial arts that are open and accountable and there are martial arts that are not.

The ones that are not will always sound better because fantasy is much more appealing than fact.

It is up to us to recognize that.

Agree. I find it hard to believe that most of the 'con arts' have not been debunked by now. As with everything there will be bad product in every industry. I feel the majority of it is instructor/school instead issues instead of style related.
That said, we have never been a hard line TKD organization and I have actively had exposure to many styles so I suppose my experience is different from many in the TKD vein.

 

[dvcochran]

Ugh. You're kind of a one trick pony. Insult. Miss the point. Say something ridiculous. Insult.

Mr. moral compass' answer to the question of whether a business should deliver what they say they will deliver is Yelp. If you're looking for good pho, sure. That might help. But that doesn't excuse the business

For a guy who alleges to be all about accountability, I don't get why the business owner need not be accountable at all. Fortunately, consumers have some legal protections. You sound like a real fan of going back to the era of snake oil salesmen.

Speaking of listening to oneself, please reread your posts. You put all accountability on the lay person, and zero on the "expert ". This is exactly how con artists work. If that's really the side you're on, please don't preach to me about moral compass.

What are you 12 years old? If the truth is an insult to you then so be it, that is on you.
Who ever said the business had no accountability? Of course they do, it is their product. You are just way too busy looking for everything to be someone else's fault to see there is two sides to the coin. Again, you are trying to build a false truth that was never there to start.
One sign of immaturity in a person is when they continuously say something that is incorrect over and over, thinking if they say it enough it will become truth. Just childish.

I enjoy debate when there is something of substance but dude, you are bringing nothing to the table.

 

[Steve]

What are you 12 years old? If the truth is an insult to you then so be it, that is on you.
Who ever said the business had no accountability? Of course they do, it is their product. You are just way too busy looking for everything to be someone else's fault to see there is two sides to the coin. Again, you are trying to build a false truth that was never there to start.
One sign of immaturity in a person is when they continuously say something that is incorrect over and over, thinking if they say it enough it will become truth. Just childish.

I enjoy debate when there is something of substance but dude, you are bringing nothing to the table.

I think there's something broken in you man. I hate to put anyone on ignore, but you just don't add anything of value. You seem compelled to personally attack rather than discuss the issues. I really hope you figure it out. Get some therapy or whatever you need.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

He says on page 35 of this thread.

He repeats, you mean. You do this kind of a lot.

 

[drop bear]

He repeats, you mean. You do this kind of a lot.

No by thirty five pages you don't think pretty much all the questions have been asked and either answered or avoided?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No by thirty five pages you don't think pretty much all the questions have been asked and either answered or avoided?

No. Most of your work has been making assumptions and avoiding actual discussion by accusing people of actively concealing things because they haven't provided them to you upon demand.

You've long made assumptions about my training and attitudes. You've clung to a couple of comments I made, and presumed them to be central to my entire training and teaching approach. You don't really care to know what it is I do. You just don't like some words, and that gets you all lathered.

 

[drop bear]

No. Most of your work has been making assumptions and avoiding actual discussion by accusing people of actively concealing things because they haven't provided them to you upon demand.

You've long made assumptions about my training and attitudes. You've clung to a couple of comments I made, and presumed them to be central to my entire training and teaching approach. You don't really care to know what it is I do. You just don't like some words, and that gets you all lathered.

Ok. How many of your students compete?

How many competitions is your club involved in in any way?

If a student wants to compete what does your club do to facilitate that?

Feel free to actively conceal that information by not providing it or just being really vague about it.

And then blame me for misrepresenting you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. How many of your students compete?

How many competitions is your club involved in in any way?

If a student wants to compete what does your club do to facilitate that?

Feel free to actively conceal that information by not providing it or just being really vague about it.

And then blame me for misrepresenting you.

This is what I was saying. You're really focused on a single point, and not considering anything surrounding it.

So, let me provide some information that puts your question in perspective. In the time since I started at the new school, I've had a total of 4 students. All were parents and had other things they spend time on (training in other styles, mostly). None were interested in competing in early training. Only one continued long-term (now just over a year) - the others moved shortly after starting training.

And I teach once a week, so I'd say it'd take at least 6 months for folks to be ready to compete if they chose to do so.

So, out of one student who stayed any duration, none compete, and all train in multiple arts. Can't really make much of a case on that. You're trying to compare my program to how things work in a gym/school with more students.

---

Now let's take a look at the larger statistics. Of the students I've taught in the last several years (since starting my own program), none trained more than 2 days a week, even when I offered 3. Most trained 1 day a week. Although most stayed for 2-3 years, you can see the priority level they chose.

People's decisions are theirs to make. Because my program is very part-time, I tend to attract folks who aren't looking to train a ton. If they wanted to train a ton, why would they go somewhere they can take a max of 3 classes?

 

[dvcochran]

I think there's something broken in you man. I hate to put anyone on ignore, but you just don't add anything of value. You seem compelled to personally attack rather than discuss the issues. I really hope you figure it out. Get some therapy or whatever you need.

I try to add content of value when there is something of value to add to, and try to do it without it without derailing the topic. Which you make a point to do. It is silly how much you deflect about personal attacks but consistently do just that. Then get defensive when things are thrown back you way.
So let me make sure I have this right; telling someone (repeatedly) to get therapy is not a personal attack? You cannot say one thing is inappropriate and then turn around and say the very same thing and it be okay. Double standard much? C'mon on man.

This is a MA forum. Can you please add something of value to the conversation? I get that some of you are home and bored but, dang.

 

[Steve]

So let me make sure I have this right; telling someone (repeatedly) to get therapy is not a personal attack? You cannot say one thing is inappropriate and then turn around and say the very same thing and it be okay. Double standard much? C'mon on man.

This is a MA forum. Can you please add something of value to the conversation? I get that some of you are home and bored but, dang.

For what it's worth, I don't think therapy is an insult. If you had a lump on your back, I'd suggest you get that checked out, too. Would you consider that an insult? Most people wouldn't.

In contrast, you have so far called me immature, immoral, and stupid. Multiple times. Oh, and that I am not personally accountable. You also vacillate between saying I'm stating obvious truths to saying I'm always wrong.

While the current moderation philosophy seems to be a light touch, your posts are, in my opinion, aggressive and unfriendly, to the point where I can't tell whether you think you agree with me or not in a response.

Like I said, I hate to put anyone on an ignore list, but I just don't think you add much. At some point, if you'd like to discuss an issue, I'm open to it. But so far, that doesn't seem to be your style.

So, feel free to respond or not. I won't see it, so you can have the last word if you like. I'll go back to discussing the topic at hand.

 

[dvcochran]

This is what I was saying. You're really focused on a single point, and not considering anything surrounding it.

So, let me provide some information that puts your question in perspective. In the time since I started at the new school, I've had a total of 4 students. All were parents and had other things they spend time on (training in other styles, mostly). None were interested in competing in early training. Only one continued long-term (now just over a year) - the others moved shortly after starting training.

And I teach once a week, so I'd say it'd take at least 6 months for folks to be ready to compete if they chose to do so.

So, out of one student who stayed any duration, none compete, and all train in multiple arts. Can't really make much of a case on that. You're trying to compare my program to how things work in a gym/school with more students.

---

Now let's take a look at the larger statistics. Of the students I've taught in the last several years (since starting my own program), none trained more than 2 days a week, even when I offered 3. Most trained 1 day a week. Although most stayed for 2-3 years, you can see the priority level they chose.

People's decisions are theirs to make. Because my program is very part-time, I tend to attract folks who aren't looking to train a ton. If they wanted to train a ton, why would they go somewhere they can take a max of 3 classes?

Reading @drop bear 's post that you responded to, it seems to me a big difference is general training vs. specific training.

It seems consistent that people with only exposure to MMA and such are a hard to sell to argue the ancillary benefits of more general, traditional training (regardless of style). Not everyone wants to just roll , or straight box, or out fight, or learn just self defense.

Not many people want to see martial arts get mashed up into one single style, which is a big push for MMA. It is a stated marketing agenda to dissolve other styles to improve their presence and perceived value. Marketing 101. You hear it from people who practice MMA. "All other style are crap" is drilled into them so much it is a conditioned response. And God forbid you try to reason with them that MMA is relatively new and a product of many other styles. So, it is a pointless argument that will eventually subsided as the wave of popularity ebbs.

Bear, I coached nearly a hundred people in AAU competition in the 80's. Dozens of medals; sixteen gold. Several to the Pan-Am games. I am certain there is a lot of video on VHS that was shot by parents. There may even be a lot out there on Youtube that I am not aware of. Hell in terms of how much I did in competing, I have very little video. It just was not a priority. Doing it was the importance; not 'getting it on video'. You would probably be shocked how much it cost to get smart phone quality video of live action back in the 80's.
My point is that for many people visual confirmation is not the only confirmation. An 'art' that is being lost. And this is coming from an engineer who is obsessed with finding the 5 W's.
We know what we have accomplished and what it took to get there and that is good enough. I never have felt a need to do something and then share it from my smart phone. Don't mix that message with how great of a tool a smart phone is. And no, that has zero to do with the 'ancient Chinese secret' crap that some may jump to. It more rings of Nike's slogan, "Just do it".

There are so many ways people can be tested. More outside the ring than inside. Using just one measurement and thinking video proof is some magic wand that has all the answers I just do not get.

I have not walked in your shoes and vice/versa so who are we to judge?