Training half of martial arts bugs me.

[Steve]

On my past experience, I'd say you're right. At one time, I could hold my defense pretty well against a purple belt, but I was personally training more then than I do now. I couldn't get many submissions, but I could prevent a lot of theirs. Now, while I'm probably better at conserving motion (and energy), I'm also likely to miss some of the cues and be late on counters. And I'm not a ground specialist, so I'd hope a BJJ purple belt would always have the upper hand on the ground.

How do I know this? Because I've rolled with folks, so know what my level was around them. It doesn't take a formal competition to find that out.

My point, though, was about the wide range of things that can be encountered in competition, including a wide range of skills. At an open competition, you may not run into the same level of skill you'd find at a consistently good gym/dojo.

I think you missed my point.

 

[dvcochran]

Competition is definable.so you can very quickly go from "I compete in the local white belt division and I compete in the UFC" and get a gauge of what people are talking about.

I spar could literally mean anything.

There are so many sets of rules for competition I find it very hard to grossly say competition is definable as you intend. You could get a good gauge on people within a competing body's label (boxing, wrestling, UFC, MMA, etc....) I would think.
If this is what you are already saying, I understand. But not knowing the scale (white to UFC) I did not recognize it.

 

[Steve]

On my past experience, I'd say you're right. At one time, I could hold my defense pretty well against a purple belt, but I was personally training more then than I do now. I couldn't get many submissions, but I could prevent a lot of theirs. Now, while I'm probably better at conserving motion (and energy), I'm also likely to miss some of the cues and be late on counters. And I'm not a ground specialist, so I'd hope a BJJ purple belt would always have the upper hand on the ground.

How do I know this? Because I've rolled with folks, so know what my level was around them. It doesn't take a formal competition to find that out.

My point, though, was about the wide range of things that can be encountered in competition, including a wide range of skills. At an open competition, you may not run into the same level of skill you'd find at a consistently good gym/dojo.

Gerry, the point I was trying to make is that whether you are competing as a white belt in the Pan Ams in California or a local competition, because the system is robust, there is calibration. Sure, it's impossible to know how well you, specifically, would perform, because you've never applied your skills outside of training. That's the actual heart of the issue. But that doesn't mean the competitive system lacks specificity.

Regarding how well you did while rolling with people at one time, I urge you to be very cautious in your evaluation of your performance. You have no idea what those purple belts were working on. The goal of sparring isn't to tap the other person out as many times as you can. It's to work on things. So, purple belts are almost surely taking it very easy on you and working on their own stuff. In contrast, the goal of competition is to win that competition. You're not practicing your skills in a competition; you're testing them.

So, where does that leave us? I think it further reinforces the value of applying skills outside of the training hall. There is value, even if you do it once or twice, or entering a local competition vs a national one. If you enter as a blue belt, you will find out very quickly if your skills are competitive at that level. If you easily win every match in your blue belt division, great information for you to know. If you get tooled, that's also great. Tells you where you're at. Not everyone needs to compete in order to measure their skills. Cops, soldiers, bouncers, gang members, mafia enforcers... these people all test their skills in varying ways. But if you're not in a position to apply your skills outside of training, you really don't know. You could be on par with black belts, for all we know. As unlikely as that may be, it's possible.

@Tony Dismukes spars with a lot of other folks. When he does so, he is getting a lot of information from that experience, in the moment, and I'm guessing also in retrospection. The value he gets out of these interactions, in my opinion, is as much about what he brings to them as what the other person does. What I'm trying to say is that @Tony Dismukes is a black belt in BJJ who has trained in many other styles over the years and who continues to train in other styles, many of them calibrated through competition. He HAS objective feedback regarding his skill level, and, in turn, that gives him the experience to evaluate his training. Consider how much value Tony would get from training for a day with a rugby player who had no grappling experience. I don't think it's very likely that Tony will misconstrue the lessons learned. Now, how about that rugby player? I think it's highly likely he will lack the experience to even understand what was going on, and because Tony is a nice guy, might even come out of it with an inflated opinion about his own performance.

To be clear, it doesn't matter to me how skilled you are. It does matter, though. It matters to you, as a martial artist, because you may need those skills someday, and you're functionally just crossing your fingers that you're as good as you think. It matters to your students, because they trust you as an expert, and when you tell them that you're teaching them skills that they will be able to apply in the context of self defense, that's a big deal to me.

In summary, the idea here isn't to say that you (as in you, @gpseymour) are or are not a skilled grappler. The point is that we don't know, or more importantly, YOU don't really know. And, if "self defense orientation" is your primary goal for training, then it seems like you'd want to have some idea of how well you can apply your skills outside of training BEFORE you test your skills in an actual self defense situation.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Regarding how well you did while rolling with people at one time, I urge you to be very cautious in your evaluation of your performance. You have no idea what those purple belts were working on. The goal of sparring isn't to tap the other person out as many times as you can. It's to work on things. So, purple belts are almost surely taking it very easy on you and working on their own stuff. In contrast, the goal of competition is to win that competition. You're not practicing your skills in a competition; you're testing them.

Steve raises an important point here regarding sparring in the gym.

Sometimes when you're sparring, your partner is bringing their A game - all their skills, all their physical attributes - in an effort to crush you as efficiently as possible. These session are pretty much indistinguishable from a competition match. (Occasionally it can be almost indistinguishable from a real fight.)

Sometimes they're using all their skills, but holding back on use of their physical attributes. This can be because they're holding back to keep things fair if they are physically superior. It might be so they can focus more on technique. It might be because they plan on spending the next hour sparring and they don't want to burn out early.

Sometimes they're working on a specific set of techniques or tactics that they want to develop. Instead of their A game, they're bringing their B, C, D, or even F game.

Sometimes they're just messing around to have fun.

Sometimes they're holding back because they're with a junior partner that they don't want to overwhelm or discourage.

Sometimes they're having an exceptionally good or exceptionally bad day and are substantially over- or under-performing compared to their normal performance.

If you do enough sparring with enough people, eventually you get a decent sense for what's happening in a given session. If you only do it occasionally then you may (as Steve points out) get the wrong impression.

Something to note is that there can be substantial variation based on the individual school or gym. Some gyms expect that every sparring match should be a full, balls-to-the-wall fight, while other gyms encourage more technical sparring with a focus on learning safely. This can lead to misunderstandings sometimes. (There are also gyms where you will find the full range of possibilities based on who you are partnered with and what they are working on that day.)

 

[drop bear]

- Tournament has official record.
- Spar/wrestle has no official record.

Both are competition.

Tournament has a standard spar wrestling has no standard.

 

[drop bear]

I agree. A culture that discourages competition will attract nobody who wishes to compete, and will dissuade those who might, but aren't really motivated that way. That's like the environment I came up under in NGA. I prefer an environment where competition is encouraged.

What I do disagree with is the implication in your first sentence that someone who wishes to compete will not compete if they join that culture. More likely, they'll either not join it, or will leave it. That's the selection process I was talking about.

And you are wrong.

If you prefer an environment where competition is encouraged. Then encourage it.

If you don't encourage it then people are not very likely to compete.

If you have said something like. "I encourage competition" and just walk away doing nothing else. And you turn around and for some selection bias reason nobody is competing.

It is not them. I am sorry to say.

 

[Buka]

Steve raises an important point here regarding sparring in the gym.

Sometimes when you're sparring, your partner is bringing their A game - all their skills, all their physical attributes - in an effort to crush you as efficiently as possible. These session are pretty much indistinguishable from a competition match. (Occasionally it can be almost indistinguishable from a real fight.)

Sometimes they're using all their skills, but holding back on use of their physical attributes. This can be because they're holding back to keep things fair if they are physically superior. It might be so they can focus more on technique. It might be because they plan on spending the next hour sparring and they don't want to burn out early.

Sometimes they're working on a specific set of techniques or tactics that they want to develop. Instead of their A game, they're bringing their B, C, D, or even F game.

Sometimes they're just messing around to have fun.

Sometimes they're holding back because they're with a junior partner that they don't want to overwhelm or discourage.

Sometimes they're having an exceptionally good or exceptionally bad day and are substantially over- or under-performing compared to their normal performance.

If you do enough sparring with enough people, eventually you get a decent sense for what's happening in a given session. If you only do it occasionally then you may (as Steve points out) get the wrong impression.

Something to note is that there can be substantial variation based on the individual school or gym. Some gyms expect that every sparring match should be a full, balls-to-the-wall fight, while other gyms encourage more technical sparring with a focus on learning safely. This can lead to misunderstandings sometimes. (There are also gyms where you will find the full range of possibilities based on who you are partnered with and what they are working on that day.)

I wholeheartedly agree. All the purple belts I rolled with back in the day we're allowing me to roll, allowing me to work. Heck, I competed in a Jits tournament once where they had a division open to everyone. I don't know if that's a thing any more. After my white belt division I drew a purple belt in the open division.

Even HE was letting me roll, and I knew it, and it was much appreciated. Whole lot of fun, too.

The other thing I like and agree with about @Tony's post....that goes one hundred percent for the striking game, too.

 

[drop bear]

"I compete" needs definition, too. Two people rolling under IBJJ rules (I assume that's the right body) are doing something pretty similar to competing at a local IBJJ-ruleset competition. There are differences, but (as I said in my reply to KFW's post), those aren't guaranteed. If someone draws me in a BJJ tournament (a rusty non-BJJ'er with limited ground experience) they aren't getting nearly as good a test on the ground as if they are rolling at their gym, if that gym is somplace like where @Tony Dismukes teaches.

Yes but competition has definition as part of its nature.

I mean I could say. "I win competitions" but absolutely nobody is going to fall for that. Because the next question will be which competition?

Of course here it would be ten pages of someone then arguing that they don't have to tell you. And just because as soon as someone asks for any details of this "competition" the discussion drops off a cliff doesn't mean the "competition" wasn't a legitimate one. Does it?

 

[drop bear]

Steve raises an important point here regarding sparring in the gym.

Sometimes when you're sparring, your partner is bringing their A game - all their skills, all their physical attributes - in an effort to crush you as efficiently as possible. These session are pretty much indistinguishable from a competition match. (Occasionally it can be almost indistinguishable from a real fight.)

Sometimes they're using all their skills, but holding back on use of their physical attributes. This can be because they're holding back to keep things fair if they are physically superior. It might be so they can focus more on technique. It might be because they plan on spending the next hour sparring and they don't want to burn out early.

Sometimes they're working on a specific set of techniques or tactics that they want to develop. Instead of their A game, they're bringing their B, C, D, or even F game.

Sometimes they're just messing around to have fun.

Sometimes they're holding back because they're with a junior partner that they don't want to overwhelm or discourage.

Sometimes they're having an exceptionally good or exceptionally bad day and are substantially over- or under-performing compared to their normal performance.

If you do enough sparring with enough people, eventually you get a decent sense for what's happening in a given session. If you only do it occasionally then you may (as Steve points out) get the wrong impression.

Something to note is that there can be substantial variation based on the individual school or gym. Some gyms expect that every sparring match should be a full, balls-to-the-wall fight, while other gyms encourage more technical sparring with a focus on learning safely. This can lead to misunderstandings sometimes. (There are also gyms where you will find the full range of possibilities based on who you are partnered with and what they are working on that day.)

I have I think submitted my purple belt coach twice in ten years. And I am still never allowed to mention that in the gym.

If I wrist lock him he has threatened to throw elbows.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And you are wrong.

If you prefer an environment where competition is encouraged. Then encourage it.

If you don't encourage it then people are not very likely to compete.

If you have said something like. "I encourage competition" and just walk away doing nothing else. And you turn around and for some selection bias reason nobody is competing.

It is not them. I am sorry to say.

You keep trying to make this a blame game. That’s a waste.

 

[Steve]

I wholeheartedly agree. All the purple belts I rolled with back in the day we're allowing me to roll, allowing me to work. Heck, I competed in a Jits tournament once where they had a division open to everyone. I don't know if that's a thing any more. After my white belt division I drew a purple belt in the open division.

Even HE was letting me roll, and I knew it, and it was much appreciated. Whole lot of fun, too.

The other thing I like and agree with about @Tony's post....that goes one hundred percent for the striking game, too.

Yeah, those were great points, Tony. This forum is funny, sometimes.

 

[drop bear]

You keep trying to make this a blame game. That’s a waste.

Because the excuse machine won't make anyone any better.

Fine nobody is to blame and I guess there is nothing you can do. The magic of the universe just happened to send you weak insipid students and you are the hero doing the best you can.

 

[drop bear]

There are so many sets of rules for competition I find it very hard to grossly say competition is definable as you intend. You could get a good gauge on people within a competing body's label (boxing, wrestling, UFC, MMA, etc....) I would think.
If this is what you are already saying, I understand. But not knowing the scale (white to UFC) I did not recognize it.

Which competition can't you define?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because the excuse machine won't make anyone any better.

Fine nobody is to blame and I guess there is nothing you can do. The magic of the universe just happened to send you weak insipid students and you are the hero doing the best you can.

There's a difference between excuses and understanding. But go ahead and go for blame. It's a waste of time, but go ahead and waste it.

Oh, and go ahead and turn some reasonable comments into base insults. That's helpful, too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes but competition has definition as part of its nature.

I mean I could say. "I win competitions" but absolutely nobody is going to fall for that. Because the next question will be which competition?

Of course here it would be ten pages of someone then arguing that they don't have to tell you. And just because as soon as someone asks for any details of this "competition" the discussion drops off a cliff doesn't mean the "competition" wasn't a legitimate one. Does it?

I agree some folks get caught up trying to make more of an argument about competition than is useful. My point was just that "competition" is not much more defined (though somewhat so) than "sparring". Fortunately, "competition" can be more easily clarified in a lot of cases - just add "IBJJ" to it, and a lot of folks know a good bit about the competition then, for instance (again, assuming I'm using the right governing body for that).

You seem to be trying really hard to argue with me on this, as you've done a LOT of lately. I was really just pointing out a bit of nuance worth noting, because ignoring it weakens the argument. You have a good point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Gerry, the point I was trying to make is that whether you are competing as a white belt in the Pan Ams in California or a local competition, because the system is robust, there is calibration. Sure, it's impossible to know how well you, specifically, would perform, because you've never applied your skills outside of training. That's the actual heart of the issue. But that doesn't mean the competitive system lacks specificity.

Regarding how well you did while rolling with people at one time, I urge you to be very cautious in your evaluation of your performance. You have no idea what those purple belts were working on. The goal of sparring isn't to tap the other person out as many times as you can. It's to work on things. So, purple belts are almost surely taking it very easy on you and working on their own stuff. In contrast, the goal of competition is to win that competition. You're not practicing your skills in a competition; you're testing them.

So, where does that leave us? I think it further reinforces the value of applying skills outside of the training hall. There is value, even if you do it once or twice, or entering a local competition vs a national one. If you enter as a blue belt, you will find out very quickly if your skills are competitive at that level. If you easily win every match in your blue belt division, great information for you to know. If you get tooled, that's also great. Tells you where you're at. Not everyone needs to compete in order to measure their skills. Cops, soldiers, bouncers, gang members, mafia enforcers... these people all test their skills in varying ways. But if you're not in a position to apply your skills outside of training, you really don't know. You could be on par with black belts, for all we know. As unlikely as that may be, it's possible.

@Tony Dismukes spars with a lot of other folks. When he does so, he is getting a lot of information from that experience, in the moment, and I'm guessing also in retrospection. The value he gets out of these interactions, in my opinion, is as much about what he brings to them as what the other person does. What I'm trying to say is that @Tony Dismukes is a black belt in BJJ who has trained in many other styles over the years and who continues to train in other styles, many of them calibrated through competition. He HAS objective feedback regarding his skill level, and, in turn, that gives him the experience to evaluate his training. Consider how much value Tony would get from training for a day with a rugby player who had no grappling experience. I don't think it's very likely that Tony will misconstrue the lessons learned. Now, how about that rugby player? I think it's highly likely he will lack the experience to even understand what was going on, and because Tony is a nice guy, might even come out of it with an inflated opinion about his own performance.

To be clear, it doesn't matter to me how skilled you are. It does matter, though. It matters to you, as a martial artist, because you may need those skills someday, and you're functionally just crossing your fingers that you're as good as you think. It matters to your students, because they trust you as an expert, and when you tell them that you're teaching them skills that they will be able to apply in the context of self defense, that's a big deal to me.

In summary, the idea here isn't to say that you (as in you, @gpseymour) are or are not a skilled grappler. The point is that we don't know, or more importantly, YOU don't really know. And, if "self defense orientation" is your primary goal for training, then it seems like you'd want to have some idea of how well you can apply your skills outside of training BEFORE you test your skills in an actual self defense situation.

As was said earlier, if you play with other folks enough, you get some feel. When folks go hard, you can pretty much tell if they're going hard, and what they're holding back. Tony has almost certainly sparred with more folks than me, and I presume with more styles than me. But it's not something that I've skimped on nearly as much as you imply here. Not something I've done much of lately - more back when I was training hard and going to seminars more often. But it's something I've done.

And you still seem to be stuck on application being an all-or-nothing _____. There's a continuum, instead. I've visited a large portion of that continuum, and much more of it in ground technique (though more often against folks who weren't ground specialists, when we were all trying out what we "knew" to see how it actually worked).

You seem to assume I've simply taken what I've been taught at face value. I've done some work beyond that, including testing the toolbox (though not specific techniques, as such) with folks from different backgrounds, and getting feedback from folks with similar training who have used the principles in their work (and some who had to use those principles only occasionally).

Again, I get that you don't think I've done my work and haven't ever actually applied what I've learned. I simply disagree with you. If you just keep restating that over and over, it's not going to get us much of anywhere.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which competition can't you define?

I think he's saying the general term "competition", rather than a specific competition.

 

[Steve]

As was said earlier, if you play with other folks enough, you get some feel. When folks go hard, you can pretty much tell if they're going hard, and what they're holding back. Tony has almost certainly sparred with more folks than me, and I presume with more styles than me. But it's not something that I've skimped on nearly as much as you imply here. Not something I've done much of lately - more back when I was training hard and going to seminars more often. But it's something I've done.

Okay man. I'm going to try again. If you don't have experience applying the skills outside of training, it is difficult to evaluate your actual skill level. This very same lack of experience makes it very easy to overestimate your own performance in training, and misunderstand the performance of your training partners.

And you still seem to be stuck on application being an all-or-nothing _____. There's a continuum, instead. I've visited a large portion of that continuum, and much more of it in ground technique (though more often against folks who weren't ground specialists, when we were all trying out what we "knew" to see how it actually worked).

Not at all. I just don't think you understand what that continuum entails, or that training experience is just that, and represents the bottom of the spectrum, regardless of the quality of that training. If you were to create a skills inventory for self defense, and scored peoples' abilities based on demonstrated proficiency, a person who has only ever trained would be very difficult to score.

The point isn't whether or not you are a skilled grappler. I've said as much several times, but you keep steering it back in that direction. The point, instead, is whether or not you can actually use your skills under pressure, when you aren't "playing with other folks" or sparring, or taking a seminar (hoo-boy, the idea you're learning skill in a seminar... come on). Is sparring useful? Of course, and the more diverse your experience, the better. Are seminars useful? Well, maybe, but the more experience and practical skill you bring into the seminar, the more you'll get out of it. Is playing with other folks enough? No. It's not. It's something. Which, I guess, is better than nothing on the continuum.

You seem to assume I've simply taken what I've been taught at face value. I've done some work beyond that, including testing the toolbox (though not specific techniques, as such) with folks from different backgrounds, and getting feedback from folks with similar training who have used the principles in their work (and some who had to use those principles only occasionally).

I don't have any idea what you're taking at face value, beyond what you have said here. I only know that whenever we talk about your experience with self defense, you talk about testing your abilities in training.

But reread the post you quoted above, and in particular my comments on the hazards of misunderstanding your performance in a snapshot encounter with other people, and then read Tony's subsequent post on the same subject. Then tell me how that helps you or anyone evaluate relative performance. How good are you? Who knows. But you know what? If you entered a BJJ tournament as a blue belt, you'd know right away. If you entered a judo tournament, you'd know right away. Or, even better, if you have the time and inclination, you could go and actually train for a length of time in a bjj or judo school. It wouldn't be as quick, but within a year or so, you'd have a good idea of where you stand, even if you don't compete, because at most schools, you'll be training with people who compete all the time. So, over a year or so, you'd have a lot of opportunity to get feedback (verbal and physical) from them in a setting that is calibrated.

Again, I get that you don't think I've done my work and haven't ever actually applied what I've learned. I simply disagree with you. If you just keep restating that over and over, it's not going to get us much of anywhere.

Hey, I'm using the term application the way you guys do, now. It was clearly confusing the issue. So, no, I think you've applied your skills a lot... in a very specific system of training.

Let's go back to our ninja. A ninja trains for 20 years in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. He's a 10th degree black belt and is a bona fide expert in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Can he fight? If all we know about him is that he's a well qualified, bona fide expert in Budo Taijutsu, then... unknown. Even if he sparred from time to time with other people. At best, the answer is, "too little information to say." What if you knew that he competed at an IBJJ event as a brown belt in a bracket with 3 other guys and got a silver medal?

 

[drop bear]

I think he's saying the general term "competition", rather than a specific competition.

Yeah. But sparring will be a general term. Competition will always be a certain competition or the term becomes meaningless.

 

[drop bear]

There's a difference between excuses and understanding. But go ahead and go for blame. It's a waste of time, but go ahead and waste it.

Oh, and go ahead and turn some reasonable comments into base insults. That's helpful, too.

It is not about blame it is about personal accountability. It is how winning is done.