Training half of martial arts bugs me.

[Gerry Seymour]

Sorry about that, I think he used to teach senshido but he's been in a couple different arts so must have gotten it mixed up.

As to why I think he's good-keep in mind I haven't actually met the dude. But he started off with martial arts, then started competing in each art he tried (so he pressure tested it all), then he entered security and saw what actually did or didn't work in actual fights. But the big thing is that he then tried (I say tried because IIRC he didn't do any legitimate studies that were peer reviewed and published) to make it more scientific-speaking to people with various combat experiences, seeing if his own thoughts about self defense held up to their actual experiences. So he's got the mindset and I would bet money that what he's teaching in his classes is stuff that actually helps.

@drop bear and @Steve if you guys have a free half hour, check out the second episode of his podcast, managing violence; he goes over his views on the barebones of what's important for self defense/'surviving' violence. I'd be curious to see what you guys think of the ideas he presents there.

While we're at it, @Tony Dismukes and @gpseymour I'd be curious about your thoughts as well.

I'll try to remember to come back to that later this evening and give it a listen.

 

[drop bear]

Just out of curiosity, how many posters here, have had to test their sd skills, in a real situation?
If you have how many times?

I was yelled at once.

 

[drop bear]

Once again, you're making an implicit claim that self-defense fighting skills are things that can only be applied in a self-defense situation. Self-defense fighting skills are pretty much just fighting skills. Tony has already covered the idea that those skills can be applied in a range of situations, including sparring (internal and external) and competition.

But then we could judge fighting skill by observing fighting.

Which would put the onus of self defence instructors to show observable fighting skills for people to take them seriously.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As for flying anything? No.

So you don't teach any jumping kick to your SD students at all.

Just trying to prove that SD "is" a subset of a MA system (1/2 MA).

 

[drop bear]

I really think the difference here is a result of availability heuristics. My experience has been that most of the SD schools do apply skills in the same manner as an MMA school, and don't 'fake it'.

See I could find guys who literally travel the world teaching combat who would get handled by an average mma school.

Let's look at guys who don't ever fight.

doug marcaida, funker tactical.

Raw combat.

You never see a defendo guy sparring.

You never see a PPCT guy sparring.

Where there are guys like the dog brothers who do.

Gracie combatives who do.

And now a lot of the military systems do.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I doubt any SD school woudl call that a self-defense technique.

Here is my concern. If your teacher taught you this technique. One day you decide that you no longer want to teaching MA system but to teach a SD system. You no longer teach this technique to your students. This technique will be lost forever.

A MA system then becomes 1/2 MA system.

 

[drop bear]

Here is my concern. If your teacher taught you this technique. One day you decide that you no longer want to teaching MA system but to teach a SD system. You no longer teach this technique to your students. This technique will be lost forever.

A MA system then becomes 1/2 MA system.

[/QUOTE]

Can you choke a guy out with only half their weight on that cord?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

See I could find guys who literally travel the world teaching combat who would get handled by an average mma school.

Let's look at guys who don't ever fight.

doug marcaida, funker tactical.

Raw combat.

You never see a defendo guy sparring.

You never see a PPCT guy sparring.

Where there are guys like the dog brothers who do.

Gracie combatives who do.

And now a lot of the military systems do.

But the dog brothers could be considered self defense. IIRC gracie combatives is there self defense program. And military systems are very specifically not made for competition, but SD. I've never heard of the other ones you mentioned that don't spar. So if anything you'd agree with my point that self defense does not auto equate to playing ninja.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Can you choke a guy out with only half their weight on that cord?

As long as your opponent's weight is on your back and his feet is off the ground. You can also just drag him backward non-stop until he is out.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

self defense does not auto equate to playing ninja.

If a SD guy also spar, that mean he will use offense technique such as flying side kick, flying knee, jumping kick, ..., he is training how to fight. Why do you still want to use the term SD for?

What's wrong just to admit that a person is training "how to fight"?

A: I train SD.
B: You are a good person.
C: I train how to fight.
B: You are a bad person.

 

[Cynik75]

...
A: I train SD.
B: You are a good person.
C: I train how to fight.
B: You are a bad person.

Exactly. Pure semiotic trick to earn some points in public perception.

 

[Buka]

To me, my opinion only, I think most people over complicate fighting, over complicate self defense.

One of the guys asked about who here has ever had to defend themselves, or been in a fight.
I honestly don't know anyone in my personal life that hasn't had to defend themselves or been in a fight.

I don't know, maybe I just know the wrong people.

 

[drop bear]

But the dog brothers could be considered self defense. IIRC gracie combatives is there self defense program. And military systems are very specifically not made for competition, but SD. I've never heard of the other ones you mentioned that don't spar. So if anything you'd agree with my point that self defense does not auto equate to playing ninja.

If you can find evidence of them sparring you can make a case that they do. This yeah I seen him fight a hundred men when nobody was looking really has no legs.

The problem with self defense is you have no discernible way of knowing who is good and who is terrible.

So you have five fruits but two of them is poison. You don't eat the fruit.

You need more evidence element of evidence to determine the real deal from larp ninja. Everything else is just marketing. The self defense that uses competition as a training tool dog brothers, gracie, military. Is much easier to identify truth from fiction.

But the SD world in general avoids this method like the plague and in doing so casts the wide brush of larp ninja over the whole industry.

Which is intentional so that people who can't apply their method can appear to.

Like a really funny Mc Map quote. "I may not be able to beat Randy Couture in the cage but if you get him on the street....."

 

[Steve]

To me, my opinion only, I think most people over complicate fighting, over complicate self defense.

One of the guys asked about who here has ever had to defend themselves, or been in a fight.
I honestly don't know anyone in my personal life that hasn't had to defend themselves or been in a fight.

I don't know, maybe I just know the wrong people.

I've been in a lot of fights, but not since the military. I honestly don't hang around violent people. There was a time, though, when I worked around a lot of unsavory characters. While i don't get into many fights, I have had a lot of practice de-escalating. While it's been a few years, there was a time when I was working daily with folks who were disabled, often mentally ill, often addicted to drugs or alcohol, often homeless, and who very often were recently released from jail. Just about every interaction was potentially volatile. I don't think my experience dealing with angry, irrational people is equivalent to, say, that of a police officer. But definitely greater than the average person's.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If you can find evidence of them sparring you can make a case that they do. This yeah I seen him fight a hundred men when nobody was looking really has no legs.

The problem with self defense is you have no discernible way of knowing who is good and who is terrible.

So you have five fruits but two of them is poison. You don't eat the fruit.

You need more evidence element of evidence to determine the real deal from larp ninja. Everything else is just marketing. The self defense that uses competition as a training tool dog brothers, gracie, military. Is much easier to identify truth from fiction.

But the SD world in general avoids this method like the plague and in doing so casts the wide brush of larp ninja over the whole industry.

Which is intentional so that people who can't apply their method can appear to.

Like a really funny Mc Map quote. "I may not be able to beat Randy Couture in the cage but if you get him on the street....."

As far as I know, there's been no systemic review of what percent of "the SD world" avoids competition as training, so can't really argue with you besides my experience which I've shared multiple times at this point, which is counter to that claim. And there is discernible ways of knowing who is good and who is not-you already mentioned the easiest one-do they support competition? Your comparison would be better as "you have five X-fruits, 3 are green, 2 are red. the red ones are poison. But only those with knowledge of this truth know that." At that point, the proper response isn't to say that all X-fruits are bad and you should avoid them,the proper response is do your research before eating those fruits.

 

[dvcochran]

I'm not sure you and I share the same definition of the word "abstract."

ab·stract

adjective
adjective: abstract
/abˈstrakt,ˈabˌstrakt/

1. 1.
   existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence

I am not sure what is in question with the word. It seems you keep going on about the what and the how but still have not explained specifically what it is that is missing.

If you agree with me, I wonder why you're so hostile about it.

Hostile. I am so far from being hostile that comment is hilarious. Direct and blunt? Definitely; I will not apologize for that.

But yeah, learning how something works isn't the same as learning how to make it work.

There are things that I have to do or use that I do not care if I do not know they work. It doesn't matter since it does what I need it to do.
In the MA vein, everyone goes through the 'how' process in the beginning usually for a significant amount of time. Using your pottery analogy, I think it is safe to say that results look better now than the first time you sat at the wheel. Proficiency is So subjective and individual. Not everyone can be Rembrandt. So your best is your best. It is up to the individual to raise the bar. Some people decide their level of competency is good enough. It may be a factor of time, commitment, interest, the list is endless. Are some of them ignorant to the fact that what they think is the 'best' really is not? Yes, but now everyone falls into this category. I certainly hope they are in the minority.
I have mentioned this on the forum before; when I went to the trials I trained 4-5 hours/day 6 days/week for over 3 years and worked a 40 hour/week job and we were already farming. I made a high goal and sacrificed a lot trying to reach. A lot. I never thought about what other people should be doing because it did not matter and did not help me reach my goal.
I find it very hard to say that anyone can claim perfection in anything. Excellent, astounding, incredible, super human, elite? Certainly. This should be the goal for everyone but it simply is not. Not everyone can be elite. Not everyone can even be proficient to a given standard. But I hope they are doing Their very best. Whether is be physical/mental limitations or just life getting in the way.
​

If you think a skill, any skill, can be learned without actually doing that thing, I welcome you to come up with an example. I can't think of one, though it's easy to come up with all kinds of examples of learning about how to do things.

I fully agree with you on this. I struggle with what your message has been about something we agree is so obvious.

See, this is why things seem so obvious. It IS obvious... until we apply it to a "self defense oriented" school. For some reason, folks start to believe you can fake it. I think we can all agree that the person who has applied the skills outside of training will have the most success. The kickboxer's experience has prepared her better. Clearly. Obviously. Why then, are we reluctant to use this same clear, obvious, common sense evaluation when it comes to self defense?

I mean, substitute MMA school with whatever self defense scenario you can think of... they are both accosted by a group of angry ninja in a dark alley. Who would be better prepared to fight their way out? Once again, I think it's obvious that the kickboxer is better prepared. The context in which she applied the skills she learned makes it a "nose on your face" question. There are a lot of other obvious comparisons out there. An experienced, well trained soldier vs Tae Bo. An experienced, well trained cop vs Tae Bo. An experienced, well trained bouncer vs Tae Bo.

On the other hand, let's take this person who trains Tae Bo (with a self defense orientation) and someone who has five years experience training in Aikido (with a self defense orientation). Who's better prepared? Not so obvious. I mean, I could see it going either way, all other things being equal. What about Budo-Taijutsu and Tae Bo? Once again, I think folks around here who are being honest can come up with a lot of examples.

I just can't say it outright because we do not have the evidence to support the idea. We have information that would seem to say the kickboxer should be better but nothing concrete to say for certain. If the kickboxer has poor skills for whatever reason and the other person has been an athlete and grew up in an active environment their whole life it could easily go their way. They could easily adapt to the training quicker/better.

So, the ball is in your court. Frankly, I debated whether to even respond to this post or not. Way I see it, you can ignore this post and go on about your merry way, you can respond to the points in the post, or you can continue to stay off to the side and take pot shots. Honestly, I couldn't care less which you choose, but if the latter, I will put you on the ignore list and stop giving you any more of my time or energy. Then you can take whatever shots you like.

I have taken shots to get a response and to supply information that to me is lacking. Yes, I get personal but I do not feel I initiated ensuing line of rebuttal.
Like I said, I am blunt, direct, and very, very busy this time of year and I get stressed like everyone else. I do not understand why you feel every post should be a line of questioning. There are a Lot of extremely informed people on the forum. A big reason I enjoy it.
It you have felt like my whipping post I apologize for that.

 

[dvcochran]

Your youth sounds very similar to mine, I was not asking for examples, everyone has a different understanding of sd, I was just curious, what I should of asked (with relation to the post conversation), is... how many here, have used their martial skills in a real sd situation?
Imo, pretty much every martial art, or sport art can be effective in sd, its whether or not the practioner have had the experience of fighting, and/or the mental capabilities to remain calm enough to execute a technique, and the control to be effective with distance work and timing.
Most of the time, a good hard smack to the face/body will end the fight, and there is no call for martial technique, but how many here has used something they learnt on the mat, to subdue, overcome, finish an opponent, outside of a sports context.

I definitely have on a number of occasions. Mostly counters and finish moves, not a lot of in between.
This may apply to some of @Steve 's post; my MA training really helped me go hands on and not really 'hurt' the person any more than necessary. One thing I have learned over the years and particularly on this forum is that my MA experience has been Very different from most people when you say you have been practicing TKD.
I also wrestled in high school and college and never have been freaked out about going to the ground even though the bulk of my MA has been in a standing out-fighting style.

 

[dvcochran]

I was yelled at once.

Bear, I am asking purely out of curiosity. Were you bouncing before you started learning MA?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But then we could judge fighting skill by observing fighting.

Which would put the onus of self defence instructors to show observable fighting skills for people to take them seriously.

And if students and potential students want to see that, they should have the opportunity. Of course, if there's good sparring going on in class (and maybe even some open sessions with folks from elsewhere), that will give most students a pretty good clue.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you don't teach any jumping kick to your SD students at all.

Just trying to prove that SD "is" a subset of a MA system (1/2 MA).

The NGA system doesn't teach jumping kicks until after shodan, and they are never seen in sparring or other applications. So I dropped them out. I don't see much advantage to them with our style of movement. The slide-up versions of side and round kicks still fits, but not an actual jumping or flying kick.