training for nukite/kwonsu

[bignick]

Wasn't really sure where to stick this one...so i put it here. Lately i've been thinking a lot about body conditioning...when the korean that founded the dojang i train at retired a lot of the old stuff that used to be done like body conditioning/hardening...makiwara work slowly slipped away..this really isn't a problem for most...we still condition our knuckles with nice knuckle pushups on a hardwood floor. I also own a makiwara and train with it. But I'd like to strengthen some of my other strikes as well, plus, I enjoy breaking and making things a challenge...and i'd like to attempt a spearhand break...but i'm not stupid enough to go grab a board and try it...I know how that'll end...i might break the board...but most likely just a finger or two. So my question is this, does anyone here practice for spearhand breaks...what do you recommend. I know my judo/jujitsu instructor has a fierce nukite...but i don't get to see him really in the summer. And i'd like to start working on this. Any suggestions on how to strengthen this strike? Thanks in advance.

 

[Andrew Green]

I did train it. I don't reccomend training it and will never do it again.

Never did at anytime injure it, but all the while it was being injured only I didn't realise it until it was too late.

This sort of conditioning is not the best idea. It really serves no purpose apart from being able to show it off as a parlour trick and is harmful to you in the long run.

 

[bignick]

Hmm...I have to respectfully disagree that it has no purpose...in the palgwe forms in taekwondo there are spearhand strikes to targets like the solar plexus...which is a fairly hard target...if you don't train to strengthen it limits your striking targets to soft areas like the throat or groin, which are good targets...but it's better to keep your options open

 

[Andrew Green]

Hmm...I have to respectfully disagree that it has no purpose...in the palgwe forms in taekwondo there are spearhand strikes to targets like the solar plexus...which is a fairly hard target...if you don't train to strengthen it limits your striking targets to soft areas like the throat or groin, which are good targets...but it's better to keep your options open

How many times do you honestly expect to strike a person with this blow at full force?

How many of those times would a closed fist or palm strike have done the same job?

How much work and long term damage are you willing to put in for a technique that you really have no need for?

Finger tip strikes are a novelty technique, nothing more. There are better things to be training that don't destroy your fingers in the process.

 

[Scout_379]

Hmm...I have to respectfully disagree that it has no purpose...in the palgwe forms there are spearhand strikes to targets like the solar plexus...which is a fairly hard target...if you don't train to strengthen it limits your striking targets to soft areas like the throat or groin, which are good targets...but it's better to keep your options open

good technique, but a punch is just as effective. or if you want to poke the guy real good, why not use an already hard, bony knuckle?
Training your hand to to destroy hard targets, destroys your hand. premature arthritis, warped bones(if not done properly). There are men who can kick holes into barrels, but their feet are pretty deformed.

 

[bignick]

I'm not going to argue that this type of training can result in permanent damage...the same can be said for any aspect of the martial arts or any physical activity for that matter. This is why you want to work up and gradually build to a level where your body can tolerate the stresses you put on it.

How many times do you honestly expect to strike a person with this blow at full force?

When do i plan on using and martial arts technique, ever?
hopefully never...

But the advantages that a strike like this brings to the table is that the strking area is a Lot smaller...and you're bringing almost the same amount of force as you do with a punch but you deliver it in a much more focused area...it's like the difference between lying on a bed of nails and a single nail...it's the same force...just concentrated into a smaller area...

 

[Scout_379]

the same can be said for any aspect of the martial arts or any physical activity for that matter. This is why you want to work up and gradually build to a level where your body can tolerate the stresses you put on it.

but the human hand is just not built for that kind of punishment. And the punishment involved is different than most other aspects of the martial arts. gradually or not, you're going to kill your hand.

It is a very effective strike, but it is best left to the softer targets and pressure points. its not worth the pain just to be able to poke something really well.
For the hard targets, a punch or other technique meant for hard hitting, is more than enough.

 

[bignick]

I really didn't want this to turn into a discussion on the application of the technique...but i have to again disagree...the human hand can take unbelievable amounts of punishment...try throwing a punch at a hard target without proper form or making an improper fist...you'll do just as much damage as a spearhadn gone bad...if your wrist is bent you could break it...ever done a knifehand break...how many boards...bricks...the most i've tried is four boards it was pretty easy...that's a lot of force on the hand...from a different angle yes...but still lot of force...although...a palm strike is very stable i must admit...

 

[Brother John]

I'm just repeating what Andrew said as they could have just as easily been my words.
Don't do it bro.
Work on conditioning and using something that is USEFUL, not detrimental.

Your Brother
John

I did train it. I don't reccomend training it and will never do it again.

Never did at anytime injure it, but all the while it was being injured only I didn't realise it until it was too late.

This sort of conditioning is not the best idea. It really serves no purpose apart from being able to show it off as a parlour trick and is harmful to you in the long run.

 

[Brother John]

I'm not going to argue that this type of training can result in permanent damage...the same can be said for any aspect of the martial arts or any physical activity for that matter.

Sorry man, but this is Not true. IF you are knowledgeable in conditioning this way (which is rare, many think they know, few really do) even then the MOST common result is damage to the fine/thin ligaments/tendons and other connective tissues in the carples and metacarples...NO two ways about it. EVEN if you take your time and gradually, patiently work your way up to it. For that matter....ESPECIALLY if you take your time and are consistant in it. The continuous ware on the tissues MUST build up, and will. Constant and nagging tendonitis would be the least, but 100% likely ones, of your concerns.

But the advantages that a strike like this brings to the table is that the strking area is a Lot smaller...and you're bringing almost the same amount of force as you do with a punch but you deliver it in a much more focused area...it's like the difference between lying on a bed of nails and a single nail...it's the same force...just concentrated into a smaller area...[/

Got it, same force spread over smaller striking surface... but it's still only meant to be used against soft-tissues, not hard. When done correctly I can create the same effect with it as ANYONE who's done the "building up" conditioning that you are speaking of...but with no training. See, in the heat of a battle, the finer alignment you'd need to place a spearhand in the exact alignment it'd need in order to NOT break the weapon...it's just not likely, I don't care HOW well trained, skilled and tallented you are.
The weapon must fit the target and the target the weapon.

Again: focus this excitement on something more productive/useful and you'll be happier. ((as well as still being able to flex all of your fingers well))
Your Brother
John

 

[bignick]

Even though there have been disagreements, I do appreciate the advice that's been given. Just to make something clear, I'm not hellbent on a path to self-destruction. I know I don't know enought about this type of conditioning, which is why i came looking for some advice. I'm planning on talking to my judo/jujitsu sensei when classes start back up. He is one of the only people that I know that still trains in these things. Also, he has a master's degree in education and he teaches anatomy and physiology. So I think he has a good perspective on the issue. I know that he encourages makiwara work...but I know he's gently discouraged people from doing similar things like this before...this was just a thought that had crossed my mind...thanks for the responses.

P.S. He's said before that some of the old chinese practitioners would sharpen their nails and lacquer them for hardness...gives a whole new level to "spearhand"

 

[Brother John]

P.S. He's said before that some of the old chinese practitioners would sharpen their nails and lacquer them for hardness...gives a whole new level to "spearhand"

I'd not heard 'sharpen', but I could see it I guess.
I don't know about them adding to a spear that much, BUT claw-hand, grabbing/scratching...etc. OUCH!!

Your Brother
John

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Finger tip strikes are a novelty technique, nothing more. There are better things to be training that don't destroy your fingers in the process.

I'd agree that some of the training methods for fingertip strikes might be a novelty, but not the strikes themselves. Whole systems build their techniques around variations of fingertip strikes.

When we see people breaking boards with spear hands often we get all excited and try to duplicate the technique with months of thrusts into buckets full of beans. Some of us convince ourselves that with time we'll be able to do a full power strike to the abdomen and disembowel our opponent, or rip his heart out like the antagonist in "The Temple of Doom". We hear apocryphal stories of master Soh Un Soh piercing wood with his tiger claw, leaving five perfectly round holes. Hey, Chuin did it in "The Destroyer", why not us?

All that said, eye jabs, rakes and throat shots with the fingers and thumb can be an excellent method of defense for even a person with somewhat delicate hands. Accuracy training, not conditioning, is the most important aspect of the training. Delivering a shot to the solar plexus, for most of us, simply isn't going to work.

Regards,


Steve

 

[Brother John]

All that said, eye jabs, rakes and throat shots with the fingers and thumb can be an excellent method of defense for even a person with somewhat delicate hands. Accuracy training, not conditioning, is the most important aspect of the training. Delivering a shot to the solar plexus, for most of us, simply isn't going to work.
Regards,
Steve

MUCH agreed Steve!
Accuracy training is the way to focus on these techniques effectiveness, not beans/sand/iron filings/glass/boards...etc.
Accuracy training, pluse experience so that you can recognize the opportunities to place a good finger tech.

Your Brother
John

 

[bignick]

Yes accuracy is the most important thing. Which is another thing that finger strikes allow for is that the profile of the striking hand is so small that it can attack places that a normal strike can't, not without some difficulty at least. A punch to the throat would be an attitude adjuster no matter who you are. But it is awfully hard to fit a fist into that tight space without running into the jaw. I must admit, I haven't been on this board for very long, but i've read quite a few posts by both brother john and hardheadjarhead, and i find myself almost always in agreement and respect the advice you've given, to myself and others. After hearing what you've said I really have reconsidered. Not that you've "talked me out of it", this was never something I was gonna try, come hell or high water. It was just something that came into my head and it was something I thought would be interesting to try...it had nothing to do with a copycat mentality, as i've never seen it done...nor have I seen the movies you discussed. Also, after reading my first posts I realize I came across as a bit more set in my ways than I thought i sounded...the time on those posts was pretty late, considerng I'd been up since 5:30 a.m. that day working...

The thing that really started this whole thing off is that if you don't condition the strike you are limited to soft targets so you don't risk injury to yourself. I have no problem with that...but i've never liked having to limit myself or what i can do...

I still would argue that it can be done, and done effectively, without injury...but sometimes things aren't worth the risk...and besides...if i hurt my hands, that'd ruin my second love, after martial arts, guitar playing...

And besides...guitars probably go over better with the ladies than a spearhand break anyways....

 

[hardheadjarhead]

And besides...guitars probably go over better with the ladies than a spearhand break anyways....

That is true. A fake Latin accent helps, too. You get this Antonio Banderas thing going...they love that.


Regards,


Steve

 

[bignick]

Oh, most definitely...I admit i've never had an attractive young coed walk into my room and say...."Hi, I just heard you doing some conditioning...thought i'd stop in and listen"

A fake Latin accent helps, too. You get this Antonio Banderas thing going...they love that.

however, they tend to get suspicious when they see a big, tall and pale (hey...do you know how hard it is to get a good tan in northern minnesota...) guy sitting there....

 

[bignick]

I'd not heard 'sharpen', but I could see it I guess.
I don't know about them adding to a spear that much, BUT claw-hand, grabbing/scratching...etc. OUCH!!

You better believe it. This information was accompanied by the story of an old chinese martial artist living in japan. My judo instructor was stationed in japan for the marines and his instructor was telling him of this little old chinese man and this jerk that kept harassing him, the man would just ignore it but one day it escalated to the point where the guy physically attacked this old man. Now, I may not have seen any of the movies hardheadjarhead was talking about, but i've seen enough martial arts movies to know not to attack an little old chinese man...evidently the old man thought his life was in danger and the altercation was over very shortly and ended with the other guy losing his upper lip...with the old man ripping it off....

Obviously, my info here is third hand...and it does have the aura of an urban legend about it...

but...you never know...

 

[Andrew Green]

While we are at it, banging your fist into something hard and solid is also a bad idea.

In fact constantly banging any part of your body into a hard solid object is going to do you harm in the long run.

There is a very good reason that boxers ALWAYS wear handwraps and gloves to hit anything.

Taking the gloves off is ok, once and a while if you must, but protect your hands. Why destroy your hands to train something you really don't need.

Of course if you really want to condition your body I suggest you also stop wearing a cup, I mean what if it happened in reality? You should be prepared for that shouldn't you?

Same thing for your hands, wear protection and take care of them.

 

[bignick]

Working with a makiwara is not banging your fist into something hard and solid...

there is give in a good makiwara...most are either made by wrapping rope or leather around wood, usually with some sort of padding...traditionally it was straw...but my sensei recommends a neoprene mouse pad and folding it in half and wrapping the rope or leather around that...some people don't use padding, but i'm not that extreme...