Training at Multiple Dojos?

[Gyakuto]

I would not, however, recommend that this be done by a white belt or by a novice with no prior martial arts training.

Why?

 

[HighKick]

I will add that I should have made it clear that, in responding to the original poster's query, I am sharing my opinions and experiences as someone with a background; I would not, however, recommend that this be done by a white belt or by a novice with no prior martial arts training.

I disagree. Trying to learn two or more styles from scratch is a Big ask. A person who is well experienced in one style, continues to train in it, and begins to train in another will have a much easier time of it.

 

[Saigo1]

I disagree. Trying to learn two or more styles from scratch is a Big ask. A person who is well experienced in one style, continues to train in it, and begins to train in another will have a much easier time of it.

I respect that opinion

 

[Saigo1]

What would be the problem with doing so? To me, it’s simply polite to do so.

By count you should be doing everything from embroidery to monster truck…whatever it is they do.

Best of luck to you

Hello Gyakuto,

To avoid needless drama, I personally don't give it much thought, although there truly isn't a problem. As I previously stated, I'm from the US, where everything is a business. To me, this is no different than attending separate college courses or purchasing burgers from two distinct establishments. Most of my current instructors are "Americanized"; they either see you in class to provide instruction or they don't. They have enough experience in the field to realize that managing a dojo entails a rotating door of pupils who come and leave. I am aware of Japanese etiquette, but I'm not sure how I would feel if I were receiving instruction there. Once I am more immersed in the culture by actually training there, then my opinions may alter. A very interesting documentary video can be found on YouTube about a man who left his life in the UK to train with a high level Shorin Ryu instructor in Okinawa. He lived and trained there, paying the teacher with yard work and other odd jobs—the traditional method of giving back to a teacher for allowing you to live and train at the dojo, among other things. That's something I completely understand and appreciate, but in all honesty, none of those opportunities happen here in the US; Okinawa and Japan are just different, here you have the money to pay or you dont. In any case, I don't know whether I'll ever get the chance to experience what that man from the UK did, but I'll make the most of my time here in the US before I can't.
Here is the YT link to that documentary if anyone is interersted

best regards

 

[Same Trick]

Hello Gyakuto,

To avoid needless drama, I personally don't give it much thought, although there truly isn't a problem. As I previously stated, I'm from the US, where everything is a business. To me, this is no different than attending separate college courses or purchasing burgers from two distinct establishments. Most of my current instructors are "Americanized"; they either see you in class to provide instruction or they don't. They have enough experience in the field to realize that managing a dojo entails a rotating door of pupils who come and leave. I am aware of Japanese etiquette, but I'm not sure how I would feel if I were receiving instruction there. Once I am more immersed in the culture by actually training there, then my opinions may alter. A very interesting documentary video can be found on YouTube about a man who left his life in the UK to train with a high level Shorin Ryu instructor in Okinawa. He lived and trained there, paying the teacher with yard work and other odd jobs—the traditional method of giving back to a teacher for allowing you to live and train at the dojo, among other things. That's something I completely understand and appreciate, but in all honesty, none of those opportunities happen here in the US; Okinawa and Japan are just different, here you have the money to pay or you dont. In any case, I don't know whether I'll ever get the chance to experience what that man from the UK did, but I'll make the most of my time here in the US before I can't.
Here is the YT link to that documentary if anyone is interersted

best regards

Thanks for pointing toward that documentary, although I can’t watch YouTube from my location I will try find it on other channels.
I too have been to Okinawa but only for a short couple of months back in the 80’s, but learned to love that place.

Training at multiple dojos might not be a good thing to do I Japan ….or just when into Japanese MA’s.
I’ve lived now for 20+ years in China, and here one also shouldn’t jump from teacher to teacher, however many CMA teachers are themselves trained in two, three different styles of martial arts, so staying with one one may anyway end up training several, also one may be recommended to train with other teachers, usually friends and colleagues to one’s main teacher,, in this way I have come to study a couple of more CMA styles that I didn’t really had in mind when I moved here.
Training fees as such doesn’t really exist when living here, it’s the traditional way of payment such as taking the teacher(s) out for dinner parties with lots of ganbei and of course lots of food Also giving nice gifts on the big holidays and such….so it can be quite a lot of RMB spent anyway
(But things are changing, kids who are interested in martial arts here in China, the parents put them in TKD schools rather than CMA, TKD I foreign and parents don’t need to follow Chinese protocols too hard with giving gifts and asking out for dinners from time to time )
It has been quite an interesting journey so far

 

[Gyakuto]

Hello Gyakuto,

To avoid needless drama, I personally don't give it much thought, although there truly isn't a problem. As I previously stated, I'm from the US, where everything is a business.

Aren’t American business people polite to each other?

<on the telephone> “Thank you for supplying embalming fluid to my meat processing business all these years, but I’ve found a more convenient (cheaper) supplier in Guangdong that I’m going to switch to. All the best to Martha and the kids.”

To me, this is no different than attending separate college courses or purchasing burgers from two distinct establishments.

Those are virtually faceless interactions. A martial arts teacher is far more ‘hands on’, invested in your training (I hope).

Most of my current instructors are "Americanized"; they either see you in class to provide instruction or they don't.

Are right. That’s a real shame. Forget ‘em then!

They have enough experience in the field to realize that managing a dojo entails a rotating door of pupils who come and leave.

Attrition rates are high in the MA, but I still find that attitude from the instructors a little sad…more like a gym owner’s attitude.

I am aware of Japanese etiquette, but I'm not sure how I would feel if I were receiving instruction there. Once I am more immersed in the culture by actually training there, then my opinions may alter.

If you found a teacher who was more of a mentor…like Mr Miyagi, I’m sure you’d think differently.

A very interesting documentary video can be found on YouTube about a man who left his life in the UK to train with a high level Shorin Ryu instructor in Okinawa. He lived and trained there, paying the teacher with yard work and other odd jobs—the traditional method of giving back to a teacher for allowing you to live and train at the dojo, among other things.

I saw that a few years ago on NHK. It’s a good account.

That's something I completely understand and appreciate, but in all honesty, none of those opportunities happen here in the US; Okinawa and Japan are just different, here you have the money to pay or you dont.

Someone please jump in and say this isn’t always the case

I completely understand your perspective now

 

[isshinryuronin]

paying the teacher with yard work and other odd jobs—the traditional method of giving back to a teacher for allowing you to live and train at the dojo, among other things. That's something I completely understand and appreciate, but in all honesty, none of those opportunities happen here in the US; Okinawa and Japan are just different, here you have the money to pay or you dont.

Someone please jump in and say this isn’t always the case

I've spent 25 years as an active student in isshinryu karate learning in the USA from two sensei. Total money spent - $170 for my first year. This does not include a year of free fencing instruction (foil) by a former Olympic coach (and some time with Ed Parker with no money paid - business arrangement). To be sure, such things are rare and I've been extremely fortunate.

The first sensei just wasn't money oriented, content to keep the dojo open and be generous to his most dedicated students - a unique individual. My fencing instructor was retired and found pleasure in sharing and teaching his skill to a few others. My second sensei was also retired (military). He learned (and still does) directly from the master in Okinawa, teaching out of a "professional" obligation to pass on the art in the ways of old.

I'm sure there are others like these, but they are few and one must be in the right place at the right time. The problem is they are mostly well under the radar and hard to come across. It's a matter of luck and fate. But if you have a great sensei who isn't greedy and loves the art, having some affinity to old TMA, and you prove your loyalty and dedication, the possibility of having a similar experience to mine exists. Such a sensei may accept no/a small token payment in return for teaching a committed student.

 

[Gyakuto]

My faith in dedicated, altruistic TMA teachers is slightly restored!

 

[Flying Crane]

Someone please jump in and say this isn’t always the case

This isn’t always the case.

Even with the involvement of money, It can definitely be about building long-term relationships and the betterment of the art. It is not simply a business transaction.

To be sure, for many it is simply a business transaction. From what I’ve seen, the instruction in those cases is typically poor quality. That kind of arrangement is an unfortunate state, for both the teacher and the student.

It is not all like that.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Last night watched Hands of Stone, a bio of Roberto Duran. Robert DiNiro played his coach. He came out of retirement and trained Duran for free (some past mob agreement kept him from getting paid). There are rewards other than money. (Especially if you don't need the money.)

One of the nice things about TMA is the tradition. Therein are the roots of things like what Saigo 1 and I posted about previously. Motivation for the teacher was more altruistic in nature than in today's commercial MA world.
Severing this traditional cord gives rise to McDojos, or at least a teacher-student business relationship. Not saying this last one is bad. Great teaching and relationships may still occur within this framework.

In the past, the normal TMA relationship was not teacher-student, but master-disciple in nature. This is a more intimate relationship and implies greater obligation (for both parties). Sometimes both situations were present: The master teaching students at the dojo and disciples privately at his home.

Outside of Okinawa, in the West, there are many 4th or 5th generation instructors. The further one is removed from the source the less likely one feels traditional ties. Many modern instructors intentionally sever these ties for various reasons. It is hard to get away from the source in Okinawa - too many old masters and history there. But it is not totally immune from "modernization" either. It is more prevalent in the West.

Starting in 1966, although I was a Westerner, the ghosts of the legendary masters were still floating around and influenced many karate dojo. There were Oriental sensei here who had contact with them and Western sensei with their direct descendents/students. My first sensei trained under one of Master Shimabuku's students and had several visits with Master, himself, and even I got to meet his son.

To keep from rambling on, let me finish up by saying while the old days are gone and we're living in a different world, we shouldn't lose touch with the past as it has ideas and values worth keeping.

 

[mahnoorgul]

Just make sure to chat with your current instructor first; they’ll appreciate the heads-up.

 

[drop bear]

My faith in dedicated, altruistic TMA teachers is slightly restored!

It isn't always the case.

If you are really good. Schools will try to form a relationship with you and attach their name to yours.

 

[Buka]

Last night watched Hands of Stone, a bio of Roberto Duran. Robert DiNiro played his coach. He came out of retirement and trained Duran for free (some past mob agreement kept him from getting paid). There are rewards other than money. (Especially if you don't need the money.)

One of the nice things about TMA is the tradition. Therein are the roots of things like what Saigo 1 and I posted about previously. Motivation for the teacher was more altruistic in nature than in today's commercial MA world.
Severing this traditional cord gives rise to McDojos, or at least a teacher-student business relationship. Not saying this last one is bad. Great teaching and relationships may still occur within this framework.

In the past, the normal TMA relationship was not teacher-student, but master-disciple in nature. This is a more intimate relationship and implies greater obligation (for both parties). Sometimes both situations were present: The master teaching students at the dojo and disciples privately at his home.

Outside of Okinawa, in the West, there are many 4th or 5th generation instructors. The further one is removed from the source the less likely one feels traditional ties. Many modern instructors intentionally sever these ties for various reasons. It is hard to get away from the source in Okinawa - too many old masters and history there. But it is not totally immune from "modernization" either. It is more prevalent in the West.

Starting in 1966, although I was a Westerner, the ghosts of the legendary masters were still floating around and influenced many karate dojo. There were Oriental sensei here who had contact with them and Western sensei with their direct descendents/students. My first sensei trained under one of Master Shimabuku's students and had several visits with Master, himself, and even I got to meet his son.

To keep from rambling on, let me finish up by saying while the old days are gone and we're living in a different world, we shouldn't lose touch with the past as it has ideas and values worth keeping.

I wish I had seen that, must have been good.

 

[Stuarto]

If I were to start some additional training at another dojo, I would first ask my sensei out of respect.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I would not expect a student to ask permission. I would like it if they told me. They might have something to add to our program.

 

[Cess]

Just be respectful of both places. If you switch permanently, chat with your current sensei to keep things cool.

 

[Buka]

If I were to start some additional training at another dojo, I would first ask my sensei out of respect.

I encouraged my students to train wherever they could. And to take advantage of anyone inviting them to take a class at their dojo.

I think it’s dumb to turn down an invitation like that. It might be a better fit for you.

 

[drop bear]

We are kind of expected to.

We get razzed for missing an opportunity to train.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If I were to start some additional training at another dojo, I would first ask my sensei out of respect.

My sensei (retired military) spent 7 or 8 years (maybe more) in Okinawa, training with, who now, is the recognized master of our style there. He has returned to Okinawa almost yearly for the past 15-20 years to further his training. There have been times that he accompanied our master visiting other renown masters there. And there have been times he visited other dojo on his own - but only after getting our master's approval. He could have secured an audience with these other masters on his own by simply dropping a few names. Yet he always asked permission from our master out of respect.

This might not be comparable to the discussion here, I'll admit. Okinawa is not the West, and the people involved are 10th, 9th or 8th dans, recognized by their peers in the birthplace of karate. What level of respect and loyalty is due to one's instructor/dojo? I suppose it's related to what level of relationship exists: Informal gym student, paying student at a commercial school, deshi, or other. If one thinks seriously about the nature of the mutual teacher-student relationship they have, I believe the proper course of action for one's particular situation will present itself.

 

[Stuarto]

My sensei (retired military) spent 7 or 8 years (maybe more) in Okinawa, training with, who now, is the recognized master of our style there. He has returned to Okinawa almost yearly for the past 15-20 years to further his training. There have been times that he accompanied our master visiting other renown masters there. And there have been times he visited other dojo on his own - but only after getting our master's approval. He could have secured an audience with these other masters on his own by simply dropping a few names. Yet he always asked permission from our master out of respect.

This might not be comparable to the discussion here, I'll admit. Okinawa is not the West, and the people involved are 10th, 9th or 8th dans, recognized by their peers in the birthplace of karate. What level of respect and loyalty is due to one's instructor/dojo? I suppose it's related to what level of relationship exists: Informal gym student, paying student at a commercial school, deshi, or other. If one thinks seriously about the nature of the mutual teacher-student relationship they have, I believe the proper course of action for one's particular situation will present itself.

That is a great story, thank you for sharing it. It seems that your sensei and the master have a close bond and friendship, and it would seem only natural to me that he would ask the master respectfully before he visit another place. This is the kind of respect we need more of in today's world. In my opinion nothing really binds you to the school you are attending but having that courtesy to ask your teacher will not only show respect towards him but also earn you respect in turn. This will also build the trust in the relationship.