Too many Katarina, Forms?
- Thread starter TSDTexan
- Start date
3 forms will be all you need.
1. beginner level form.
2. intermediate level form.
3. advance level form.
For example,
1. speed,
2. power,
3. enter and finish.
1. offense,
2. defense and counter,
3. counter to counter (combo).
...
You want to grow "tall". You don't want to grow "fat". To repeat your elementary school education 5 times won't be able to earn you a PhD degree.
To repeat "This is a book" 1,000,000 times is not the same as to repeat "To be, or not to be" 1 time.
1. beginner level form.
2. intermediate level form.
3. advance level form.
For example,
1. speed,
2. power,
3. enter and finish.
1. offense,
2. defense and counter,
3. counter to counter (combo).
...
You want to grow "tall". You don't want to grow "fat". To repeat your elementary school education 5 times won't be able to earn you a PhD degree.
To repeat "This is a book" 1,000,000 times is not the same as to repeat "To be, or not to be" 1 time.
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I don't see how this can be answered, really.
If the forms are intended to teach a significant number of techniques, then it will depend on the length of the forms.
So I'd say you need as many forms as it takes to teach the material that you want taught by forms practice.
KangTsai
2nd Black Belt
What's a katarina?
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I believe it is possible to have too many. Just what that number is, depends on how the system is structured and how the forms themselves are structured and what they are meant to teach and help you drill.
The forms in my system do not, in my opinion, catalogue all the techniques of the system. Rather, they drill principles of efficient movement and give examples of what is possible, but not a list of answers. Only suggestions that are meant to open your eyes to what is possible.
We have well over a dozen, maybe even a dozen and a half. Personally, I think that if you don't "get it" by the time you have learned six or seven, then learning another six or seven isn't going to help you. It just spreads you thin.
And if you "get it" by the time you have learned six or seven, then you don't need another six or seven more. They aren't necessary for you.
That's not to say they are no good. I think they can be both useful and unnecessary at the same time. If you have them, well great for you. But if you don't have them, you arent lacking or missing anything.
The forms in my system do not, in my opinion, catalogue all the techniques of the system. Rather, they drill principles of efficient movement and give examples of what is possible, but not a list of answers. Only suggestions that are meant to open your eyes to what is possible.
We have well over a dozen, maybe even a dozen and a half. Personally, I think that if you don't "get it" by the time you have learned six or seven, then learning another six or seven isn't going to help you. It just spreads you thin.
And if you "get it" by the time you have learned six or seven, then you don't need another six or seven more. They aren't necessary for you.
That's not to say they are no good. I think they can be both useful and unnecessary at the same time. If you have them, well great for you. But if you don't have them, you arent lacking or missing anything.
OP
TSDTexan
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In my town, there is a dojo. The style is a karatedo that has 106 forms, that decends from the lineage of Kansen Tôyama.
A very remarkable individual who trained in all three of the Okinawan "Te" traditions.
Not all of the forms are karate. Quite a few a Chinese Kenpo, and then there are the kobudo forms.
It seems like a mammoth undertaking to embark upon.
I have a small reservation about spending the next 40 Years of my life trying to learn all these forms, and becoming a kata jack of trades, instead of a kata specialist.
As the dojo is the only one that teaches Okinawan Karate, in this area, I don't have any other options.
I have a very deep respect for the school's head instructor.
A very remarkable individual who trained in all three of the Okinawan "Te" traditions.
Not all of the forms are karate. Quite a few a Chinese Kenpo, and then there are the kobudo forms.
It seems like a mammoth undertaking to embark upon.
I have a small reservation about spending the next 40 Years of my life trying to learn all these forms, and becoming a kata jack of trades, instead of a kata specialist.
As the dojo is the only one that teaches Okinawan Karate, in this area, I don't have any other options.
I have a very deep respect for the school's head instructor.
JR 137
Grandmaster
Ignoring your last post for a second...
If the point in forms is to defeat imaginary multiple attackers, I guess the more forms, the better. You can never have too many ways to defeat imaginary multiple ninjas who come at you.
If the point is to make them look pretty so a bunch of judges give you a higher score, then learn a ton of them and concentrate on the one that you feel best with.
If the point of the form is to learn how every move (and several moves can be strung together) can be used realistically against a fully resisting attacker, then less is more. If you learn 3 different forms for each rank, and the average time in those ranks is 3-6 months, how well can you truly use any of them to realistically defend yourself using those applications? Unless they're shallow block-punch-kick applications against someone who's expected to be dead or disabled by a single punch to the stomach, the application of each movement takes a lot of time to use functionally against a resisting opponent.
If I ever started my own system, which I won't because I don't see myself ever being so good that no one does it better, I'd have 1 empty hand form per belt rank. Not 1 form for white, 1 fo advanced white, 1 for blue, 1 for advanced blue, etc., but 1 that was for both white and advanced white, 1 for blue and advanced blue, etc. The student would learn the form and perhaps standardized applications at the first level, then have to use it against full resistance and come up with their own applications at the advanced level. And not block-punch-kick applications. Once they've done that proficienly, they'd earn their next belt and learn a more difficult kata. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Not all forms are meant to be outright fighting moves forms. Sanchin is typically taught as a body conditioning/hardening form. Posture is checked, students are progressively hit harder and harder while doing it. There's not many different fighting moves applications in it because how many different applications can a person come up with for 2 or 3 very basic movements that are repeated several times the same way?
As for the teacher in question and his teaching 108 forms, if you highly respect him, give him a serious chance. He may be everything you think he is, or he may not be. Only one way to find out.
If the point in forms is to defeat imaginary multiple attackers, I guess the more forms, the better. You can never have too many ways to defeat imaginary multiple ninjas who come at you.
If the point is to make them look pretty so a bunch of judges give you a higher score, then learn a ton of them and concentrate on the one that you feel best with.
If the point of the form is to learn how every move (and several moves can be strung together) can be used realistically against a fully resisting attacker, then less is more. If you learn 3 different forms for each rank, and the average time in those ranks is 3-6 months, how well can you truly use any of them to realistically defend yourself using those applications? Unless they're shallow block-punch-kick applications against someone who's expected to be dead or disabled by a single punch to the stomach, the application of each movement takes a lot of time to use functionally against a resisting opponent.
If I ever started my own system, which I won't because I don't see myself ever being so good that no one does it better, I'd have 1 empty hand form per belt rank. Not 1 form for white, 1 fo advanced white, 1 for blue, 1 for advanced blue, etc., but 1 that was for both white and advanced white, 1 for blue and advanced blue, etc. The student would learn the form and perhaps standardized applications at the first level, then have to use it against full resistance and come up with their own applications at the advanced level. And not block-punch-kick applications. Once they've done that proficienly, they'd earn their next belt and learn a more difficult kata. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Not all forms are meant to be outright fighting moves forms. Sanchin is typically taught as a body conditioning/hardening form. Posture is checked, students are progressively hit harder and harder while doing it. There's not many different fighting moves applications in it because how many different applications can a person come up with for 2 or 3 very basic movements that are repeated several times the same way?
As for the teacher in question and his teaching 108 forms, if you highly respect him, give him a serious chance. He may be everything you think he is, or he may not be. Only one way to find out.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I've spent enough time training in systems that have an endless curriculum to know that it's not a good match for me personally, and I would never recommend it. But each person needs to decide for himself.
I remember being handed the list of a dozen or so forms that were required for Nidan advancement, doing the math in my head and stacking that all on top of what I had already learned, and thinking to myself, I don't want to learn this stuff. Not long afterwards I left that school.
If your system has so many forms that students end up spending their available training time just memorizing endless sequences, then I don't see much benefit in them. I'm not a huge fan of solo forms in general, but if you're going to do them, then you should spend the time delving deep into the lessons each one has to give.
I've been studying Wing Tsun since the beginning of the year. I've learned one form so far. I've practiced that form almost every day since January and I don't feel that I'm anywhere close to mastering it. If I was learning a new form every month or two, I don't see how that would allow time for anything more than memorizing an arbitrary sequence or how I would manage to learn any deeper lessons from the forms.
I've been studying Wing Tsun since the beginning of the year. I've learned one form so far. I've practiced that form almost every day since January and I don't feel that I'm anywhere close to mastering it. If I was learning a new form every month or two, I don't see how that would allow time for anything more than memorizing an arbitrary sequence or how I would manage to learn any deeper lessons from the forms.
hoshin1600
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Yes and no. You are correct in that it is a foundational kata not an application kata. But the point is not body hardening although it may seem like that to the outsider or a beginner.
I have forgotten every kata I have ever learnt except for three or four. There are only two I work continually and focus on. But I have been "working" these two for 20 years maybe it's time for another.
JR 137
Grandmaster
Body hardening isn't the only point of Sanchin, but it is one point. I should have said that in my previous post.
It also depends on the system, school, teacher, and where the student is at in their training.
OP
TSDTexan
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At that dojo, grade advancement is pretty slow. There is a student there who has regularly attended for 8 years, who only recently achieved brown belt.
He hasn't failed a lot of exams either.
I love the simplicity of a low form count system like WC/VT.
But I am more upstream and closer to the spring from where my tsd is.
I am learning a lot of stuff about my forms that I didn't know before.
This makes me happy.
He hasn't failed a lot of exams either.
I love the simplicity of a low form count system like WC/VT.
But I am more upstream and closer to the spring from where my tsd is.
I am learning a lot of stuff about my forms that I didn't know before.
This makes me happy.
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