To Takedown or Not to Takedown?

[Kung Fu Wang]

You will feel differently if someone knocks you down vs. take you down. When someone knocks you down, you may feel angry and want to knock your opponent down too. When someone take you down, you will feel that your opponent has better MA skill than you do. You may not want to fight back after that.

One of my friends told me that a "foot sweep" saved his career. He worked in Quick Oat Company. 2 of his co-worked always tried to trouble him. My friend told his wife that he might lose his job that day (he intented to fight back that day). He faced those 2 guys, a perfect "foot sweep" take one guy down. It scared both guys. Both guys left him alone until he retired many years later.

When someone uses foot sweep to take you down, it can cause more shocking than a punch on your nose. That shocking can stop you to have desire to fight back.

Someone said that foot sweep can solve 80% of the street problems. I truly believe in that.

 

[skribs]

This is why I tell my students that there is no such thing as a "submission" in a street self-defense context. You can't expect that a mugger will tap out to an armlock and then shake your hand and say "good job" afterwards

I was helping with the tots class today. This girl, about 5-6 years old, is drilling a double leg. We always teach the kids to help your partner up after a take-down. This girl decided to make it a scenario. "She [the training partner] is trying to kidnap me!" (She does the double leg). "Now I help the stranger up!"

There was a rather lengthy facepalm on my part. After that, I told her to think of her training partner as a tournament opponent instead.

 

[skribs]

It can. Or it could save your life.

Trying to punch and kick your attacker can get you killed. Or it can save your life.

Trying to run away from an attacker can get you killed. Or it can save your life.

Trying to deploy a weapon can get you killed. Or it can save your life.

Being able to evaluate the situation and take appropriate action, rather than automatically going for your favorite sparring move is key. This is why I try to mix things up with my students, giving them different (often asymmetric) objectives to aim for in our live rounds. I can't necessarily give them the knowledge to know exactly when to talk and when to run and when to take down and restrain and when to stand and bang. But I can help them learn the mental flexibility to switch up their immediate objectives as needed.

It baffles me how long some of these folks have been on this forum and think there's one right answer for every situation. It's the same mindset as "If the jab is the most important punch, why bother learning all of the others?"

 

[HighKick]

This is why I tell my students that there is no such thing as a "submission" in a street self-defense context. You can't expect that a mugger will tap out to an armlock and then shake your hand and say "good job" afterwards. There are chokes intended to render an opponent unconscious and there are joint locks intended to inflict structural damage, such as dislocating a joint or tearing ligaments. If the situation is not one where you can legally and morally justify choking your attacker unconscious or breaking a limb, then you should not be going for those techniques.

It can. Or it could save your life.

Trying to punch and kick your attacker can get you killed. Or it can save your life.

Trying to run away from an attacker can get you killed. Or it can save your life.

Trying to deploy a weapon can get you killed. Or it can save your life.
I
Being able to evaluate the situation and take appropriate action, rather than automatically going for your favorite sparring move is key. This is why I try to mix things up with my students, giving them different (often asymmetric) objectives to aim for in our live rounds. I can't necessarily give them the knowledge to know exactly when to talk and when to run and when to take down and restrain and when to stand and bang. But I can help them learn the mental flexibility to switch up their immediate objectives as needed.

I don't know about skribs, but I certainly can and have. (As might be expected after 26 years of BJJ practice.) Whether I would choose to do that rather than some other option (such as slamming them, stomping the groin, and running away) very much would depend on the details of the situation.

All very good points. I guess I under-rated my point about the level of strain a person may be willing or able to handle. Because escalation can be Very hard to gauge, the quicker a person is restrained the better.

I was a smaller weight class in my college wrestling days (150's lbs). I can remember some of those 3-mnute rounds feeling Much longer when I was in a prolonged leveraged/strained position.

In my LEO days, I focused Much more on getting to hard restraint as fast as possible. Situational assessment from a distance (approx. 6') as much as possible and then when the decision was made to go hands-on, things got real fast, real quick. No more talking than required.
We had a few guys that IMHO tried to be too 'nice' sometimes and often ended up causing themselves or the assailant more grief. Maybe they tried to reason with the person to much, but it usually just led to consternation and sometimes someone really getting hurt. Conversely, we had some guys who loved dolling out punishment too much. Sometimes they would talk/bait a person into doing something stupid. Sometimes their actions would be quick and violent, sometimes overly long restraint/joint manipulation for the sheer pleasure of it.
This was near the end of the slap-jack days. If you have ever seen one in use, you understand.

 

[drop bear]

Sure. But have You ever done it? I am not talking about a pin or submission in a match. Much harder than it looks. I am not theorizing, I have had to do it, and it is a PITA.
Think of it this way, imagine holding 150 plus pounds perpendicular for 5-10 minutes. Do you really think you could do that?

I have done it. And held guys for like 40 minutes.

I go to kasegetami. And I am basically sitting in a lounge chair.

 

[HighKick]

I have done it. And held guys for like 40 minutes.

I go to kasegetami. And I am basically sitting in a lounge chair.

View attachment 32977

I get what you are saying. I did not do a good job of making my point on strain. I was trying to imply holding 150 plus pounds in your hands in mid-air with no other supporting mechanisms. The strain from leverage and body posture would be Much different.
Applying pressure or leverage on the ground is 'easier' since you can use your body as the lever and the floor for friction. I would more call what you are showing as 'torque', but potato/potatoe.

What you are showing is just not apples to apples, but I do get your point.

 

[Holmejr]

I respect your altruistic approach but good luck with that.

Police do this often. Bouncers do this often. In my 3 real life altercations, 2 of 3 ended up nicely, with “if I let you up can we quit” endings. The other ended up with me kicking him off his feet. I call it realistic altruism…

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Let's be honest though, most serious injuries that happen in fights happen by accident, and regularly indulging in behaviour like this is hardly to your credit. I'm a sportsman and a hobbyist, not a 'streetfighter'. So practicing takedowns for me is more of an 'optional extra'.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The difference between a striker and a grappler is:

When a

- striker knock his opponent down, the striker may have to get into legal issue.
- grappler takes his opponent down, the grappler may not have to get into legal issue.

 

[HighKick]

The difference between a striker and a grappler is:

When a

- striker knock his opponent down, the striker may have to get into legal issue.
- grappler takes his opponent down, the grappler may not have to get into legal issue.

I disagree. The legal ramification would be near identical unless the striker did some kind of debilitating or damaging blow(unlikely). Once hands are on, the dynamic of the legal environment are viewed as the same. Graphics can have bearing if things were to go to a jury trial and there were some very good pictures to show the jury.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Recent posts on the Matsumura Seito thread redirected the topic (somehow) to takedowns and a thought occurred to me - Of what value are takedowns in the first place? Do the pros outweigh the cons? (There are both.) Of course, skill level plays a part - Boxers and wrestlers will have conflicting opinions on this. Putting individual preferences/abilities aside, what objective elements of takedowns, their nature, give value, or not, in non-sport combat?

IMO, the most basic consideration is that if someone goes down, he can get back up. This leads to the following axiom: A takedown is only useful if it leads to the opponent NOT being able to get back up in a condition (at least for a short while) that allows him to effectively continue to fight. Without this the takedown is of little value. Well, it may have some value in giving you a breather while he gets up, but it's better if he doesn't.

Takedowns leading to incapacitation: A hard slamming takedown. Facilitating a joint injury during or just after. Positioning him for a solid strike with him out of position to counter (such as face down/limbs pinned). These are all good things. But such things can be accomplished while on your feet as well. Perhaps this is better as it avoids the risks takedowns may present: Being physically outclassed in size and strength leading you to stall mid-takedown (very bad unless you have excellent technique to overcome this physical disadvantage). Possibility of getting entangled/tripped and ending up on the bottom. Effective takedowns require simultaneous (complex) coordination of several body parts, no mean feat against a resisting opponent.

Stand-up combat largely avoids such risks. It is simpler and more direct. So, is it worth the effort and risk of taking down the opponent? If so, when and why is it advantageous?

Take downs are very simple fighting concept. Only do it, if it will benefit you the most. For example, A take down may help avoid punches but may increase the risk of having my arm broken. So for me. If that's the reality then I don't need to do it.

In terms of someone getting back up after I take them down. That's fine with me. He'll use more energy to get back to his feet. I created a cardio and strength building training exercise that involve me getting up from the ground. I think I started to get tired after the 5th time standing. The way that I ended up on the ground was that I lowered myself to the ground. Being thrown to the ground or falling to the ground should take fewer stand ups than that to feel sluggish getting up. It just depends on the surface. In street fights that sluggish feeling sets in sooner.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I disagree. The legal ramification would be near identical unless the striker did some kind of debilitating or damaging blow(unlikely). Once hands are on, the dynamic of the legal environment are viewed as the same. Graphics can have bearing if things were to go to a jury trial and there were some very good pictures to show the jury.

Ive been arrested 3 itimes over injuries I caused in fights. The first debilitating injuries were caused by me kicking and stomping the head after he went down. He did not get up. I’m lucky I didn’t kill him. He was in hospital for supraorbital fracture, maxillary fracture, orbital floor fracture, fractured olecranon, and some various minor stuff. This guy threatened and stalked me several times. I was arrested but I was a minor at the time. I got a year of supervised probation and 500 hours of community service and my parents paid a large restitution. There is no moral to this story.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

kicking and stomping the head after he went down.

Something like this.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Something like this.

It was a very long time ago, but yes, something similar. It’s not something I’m proud of. I wish it hadn’t happened, but I felt I had no choice after several previous confrontations. He had a weapon when he approached me, I was 16, still no excuse for what I did.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

still no excuse for what I did.

If you take down your opponent, without follow up strike, your opponent will get back up and fight you again. But if you use follow up strike when your opponent is down. you may have legal issue. This just don't make sense at all.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

If you take down your opponent, without follow up strike, your opponent will get back up and fight you again. But if you use follow up strike when your opponent is down. you may have legal issue. This just don't make sense at all.

There is such a thing as going too far.