TKD is Weak on the street as a self defense?

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,494
Reaction score
5,401
That is what skribs does. He's been very clear about that.

No such thing. Or rather, it's so broad a term as to be meaningless. There are at least a dozen different rulesets used by various branches of TKD and various times.

If he wanted to say Olympic sparring then he should have said. Otherwise broader is better for me.

I am an advocate of sparring different rule sets anyway.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,245
Reaction score
7,839
Location
Hendersonville, NC
OK two things.

If I can kick a person and knock them out. I can use that as a tool in self defence. It doesn't matter if it is an accepted self defence tool or not.


And if you get to suggest street vs sport and controlled environments.

I assume I get to suggest intoxicated attackers not wearing head gear who have never dealt with a TKD kick his life.
Okay. Go ahead.

I'm not sure why you are so worked up over the idea that we select what works in the environment we're in - you've mentioned that yourself. As for practicing on different surfaces helping - it's how you can find out what will and won't work there (you know, without guessing). My round kicks have gotten clunky, so it's not surprising they aren't dependable on wet grass. I have put some work in to improve them, but haven't been on a slippery surface since then.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,245
Reaction score
7,839
Location
Hendersonville, NC
If I can kick a person and knock them out. I can use that as a tool in self defence. It doesn't matter if it is an accepted self defence tool or not.
I forgot to respond to this. I'm not sure what your point was. I've made no mention of "accepted self defense tools".
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,494
Reaction score
5,401
I forgot to respond to this. I'm not sure what your point was. I've made no mention of "accepted self defense tools".

Except the original argument was this.

"The keyword of my question to DB was "trained".

My point was that the years of sport tkd training I did were all centred around a safe obstacle free environment, against a single opponent with no kicking below the waist or punching to the face etc etc. When i sparred with a wing chun training friend in his garden one morning I suddenly found myself unable to use my entire tkd arsenal because the ground was too slippery. I had to call back on my SD oriented Shotokan training.

Other than that, in the 10 years I spent policing north London streets there were a couple of occasions of needing to fight someone on wet ground, as well as rocky ground, as well as obstacle filled small spaces, as well as times when grappling with one person on the ground meant being vulnerable to attack from others.... etc."
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,245
Reaction score
7,839
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Except the original argument was this.

"The keyword of my question to DB was "trained".

My point was that the years of sport tkd training I did were all centred around a safe obstacle free environment, against a single opponent with no kicking below the waist or punching to the face etc etc. When i sparred with a wing chun training friend in his garden one morning I suddenly found myself unable to use my entire tkd arsenal because the ground was too slippery. I had to call back on my SD oriented Shotokan training.

Other than that, in the 10 years I spent policing north London streets there were a couple of occasions of needing to fight someone on wet ground, as well as rocky ground, as well as obstacle filled small spaces, as well as times when grappling with one person on the ground meant being vulnerable to attack from others.... etc."
Okay, I'm still not sure where the term "accepted SD technique" is coming in. He never said he couldn't use stuff because it wasn't designed for SD. He said he couldn't use his sport-oriented TKD because it wasn't working in the situation. That might be a problem with TKD, or might be a problem with his TKD. For him, in the situation at that moment, the two are the same. Someone with TKD experience would probably be equipped to talk about whether the way the techniques are trained/used for sport makes it harder to translate them to less dependable surfaces.

The concept that started out here was that training for sport can end up developing technique in a way that doesn't work on other surfaces. Mind you, the same is true for SD-oriented training, if that training is limited to the dojo, for the very same reasons. It's pretty easy to step outside and work on grass, gravel, pavement, etc. from time to time, and it gives an opportunity to find out (when the cost of finding out is pretty low) what is and is not problematic when you aren't in that training environment.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,494
Reaction score
5,401
Okay. Go ahead.

I'm not sure why you are so worked up over the idea that we select what works in the environment we're in - you've mentioned that yourself. As for practicing on different surfaces helping - it's how you can find out what will and won't work there (you know, without guessing). My round kicks have gotten clunky, so it's not surprising they aren't dependable on wet grass. I have put some work in to improve them, but haven't been on a slippery surface since then.

Here is the logic.

If I knock guys consistently out with a tornado kick in the gym. That is fine. But I am unlikely to have to do self defence in a gym setting. So I would need to choose more appropriate methods for self defence.

Now I could just go out on the grass and throw a tornado kick.(which I have done) and the grass doesn't adversely effect me more than anything in the gym.

So I can be reasonably sure that if I can effect the same conditions in self defence as I can with a successful kick in the gym there is a good chance that kick will work.

That is the argument for training on different surfaces.

That is not the argument being used here though.

And without being clear about where you stand. You are contributing to what is again going to be this silly idea that you cannot verify a technique without having used it in self defence and so will just have to rely on someone's say so.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,494
Reaction score
5,401
Okay, I'm still not sure where the term "accepted SD technique" is coming in. He never said he couldn't use stuff because it wasn't designed for SD. He said he couldn't use his sport-oriented TKD because it wasn't working in the situation. That might be a problem with TKD, or might be a problem with his TKD. For him, in the situation at that moment, the two are the same. Someone with TKD experience would probably be equipped to talk about whether the way the techniques are trained/used for sport makes it harder to translate them to less dependable surfaces.

The concept that started out here was that training for sport can end up developing technique in a way that doesn't work on other surfaces. Mind you, the same is true for SD-oriented training, if that training is limited to the dojo, for the very same reasons. It's pretty easy to step outside and work on grass, gravel, pavement, etc. from time to time, and it gives an opportunity to find out (when the cost of finding out is pretty low) what is and is not problematic when you aren't in that training environment.

Being able to handle a non optimal surface is also important in sport.

This idea that sports training is conducted in some sort of vacuum is not correct. Or even that some sort of super sterilized environment is optimal let alone practical.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,494
Reaction score
5,401
Actually that makes my life a lot easier.



Your argument of a sterile gym is a fallacy. At best a generalisation.

So without that. Where does this wet grass argument even go?
 

JR 137

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
5,162
Reaction score
3,214
Location
In the dojo
Oh man, so you must be the reason that my liability insurance company feels they have to specify, in writing, that they don't cover training in lakes or oceans. :D:D:D:p
What about rivers? Ponds? :) Insurance companies will look for every loophole when it comes time to pay, so you might as well too :)

If we had an ocean nearby, we’d go there instead. Closest is probably about 3 hours drive away, so we go to the lake every year. Nakamura (our organization’s founder) most likely carried it over from his Kyokushin days.

Nakamura’s dojo does their annual beach training at Far Rockaway Beach (I can’t say that without hearing the Ramones song in my head) in NYC. Other Seido dojos with ocean access do as well.

We do the training in the water similar to the way class would be run, but there’s the whole element of kicking the sand at each other, doing basics in the water, and sparring in the water. We go for about an hour and a half. Rain or shine, except for lightning. Gis get pretty heavy in the water. We wear t-shirts, but Nakamura’s dojo goes full gi. Afterward we have a picnic in the pavilion that overlooks the lake, and everyone’s family is invited. It’s one of the best karate days of the year.

Nakamura also holds a special class at one of the parks in NYC after the first accumulating snowfall. I can’t imagine training in snow barefoot and in a gi for 30 minutes or however long they go for. I think he’s recently allowed shoes during it though.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,245
Reaction score
7,839
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Here is the logic.

If I knock guys consistently out with a tornado kick in the gym. That is fine. But I am unlikely to have to do self defence in a gym setting. So I would need to choose more appropriate methods for self defence.

Now I could just go out on the grass and throw a tornado kick.(which I have done) and the grass doesn't adversely effect me more than anything in the gym.

So I can be reasonably sure that if I can effect the same conditions in self defence as I can with a successful kick in the gym there is a good chance that kick will work.

That is the argument for training on different surfaces.

That is not the argument being used here though.

And without being clear about where you stand. You are contributing to what is again going to be this silly idea that you cannot verify a technique without having used it in self defence and so will just have to rely on someone's say so.
Oy, now you're crossing arguments with other arguments. I'm not even sure if some of what you posted was meant to be a comment on my posts, or a generic comment about the topic.

You don't like me getting input from folks who use the stuff in the field ("just stories"). You don't like me sparring with resistance (in more than one thread, you've appeared convinced I can't possibly be doing that right). You don't like me working from videos to get evidence (you just pick a video that shows it's not always that way, and claim that makes the first video irrelevant). And now you don't like me testing technique on various surfaces to get an idea of how those surfaces affect technique.

Just what the hell? Seriously.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,245
Reaction score
7,839
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Being able to handle a non optimal surface is also important in sport.

This idea that sports training is conducted in some sort of vacuum is not correct. Or even that some sort of super sterilized environment is optimal let alone practical.
Sports training environment is pretty similar to dojo training environment for SD schools. It doesn't have the variability you can get by simply stepping outside. I've never claimed working on variable surfaces wouldn't be useful for sport - just useful in a different way, I'd think. In both cases, it's at least partly about mental elasticity. In one case, it's directly about testing techniques to see what changes based upon a few different surfaces/environments. For sport, I don't think going outside (assuming indoor competition, of course) is directly applicable in that way, but surely there's some variability from venue to venue, so working different surfaces would be useful.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,494
Reaction score
5,401
Oy, now you're crossing arguments with other arguments. I'm not even sure if some of what you posted was meant to be a comment on my posts, or a generic comment about the topic.

You don't like me getting input from folks who use the stuff in the field ("just stories"). You don't like me sparring with resistance (in more than one thread, you've appeared convinced I can't possibly be doing that right). You don't like me working from videos to get evidence (you just pick a video that shows it's not always that way, and claim that makes the first video irrelevant). And now you don't like me testing technique on various surfaces to get an idea of how those surfaces affect technique.

Just what the hell? Seriously.

I think you are trying to twist my arguments there. You can test your techniques on any surface you want.

i mean i said i could do it i said i have done it in the post you replied to.

Here.

Now I could just go out on the grass and throw a tornado kick.(which I have done) and the grass doesn't adversely effect me more than anything in the gym.

So I can be reasonably sure that if I can effect the same conditions in self defence as I can with a successful kick in the gym there is a good chance that kick will work.

So not sure what you are complaining about.
 
Last edited:

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,494
Reaction score
5,401
Sports training environment is pretty similar to dojo training environment for SD schools. It doesn't have the variability you can get by simply stepping outside. I've never claimed working on variable surfaces wouldn't be useful for sport - just useful in a different way, I'd think. In both cases, it's at least partly about mental elasticity. In one case, it's directly about testing techniques to see what changes based upon a few different surfaces/environments. For sport, I don't think going outside (assuming indoor competition, of course) is directly applicable in that way, but surely there's some variability from venue to venue, so working different surfaces would be useful.

The question isn't whether you go outside the gym. It is whether the feedback from in the gym is relevant.

We do step outside as part of sports training. Plenty of people do.

Even TKD people do it.

Amazing I would have thought they would just keep falling over.
 
Last edited:

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,245
Reaction score
7,839
Location
Hendersonville, NC
I think you are trying to twist my arguments there. You can test your techniques on any surface you want.

i mean i said i could do it i said i have done it in the post you replied to.

Here.

Now I could just go out on the grass and throw a tornado kick.(which I have done) and the grass doesn't adversely effect me more than anything in the gym.

So I can be reasonably sure that if I can effect the same conditions in self defence as I can with a successful kick in the gym there is a good chance that kick will work.

So not sure what you are complaining about.
Look back at your own posts, then. You spent time poking at the idea of training on grass. Did you have a point at all?
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,245
Reaction score
7,839
Location
Hendersonville, NC
The question isn't whether you go outside the gym. It is whether the feedback from in the gym is relevant.

We do step outside as part of sports training. Plenty of people do.

Even TKD people do it.

Amazing I would have thought they would just keep falling over.
Okay, so now you are going back to some discussion not even relevant to the posts you made earlier, for all I can tell.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,494
Reaction score
5,401
Look back at your own posts, then. You spent time poking at the idea of training on grass. Did you have a point at all?

Yeah three points. Just sometimes it takes me a few goes to get the concept concise.

One. The argument that a gym or a dojo is a sterilized world where real life doesn't happen is a fallacy. Arguing from that idea makes any logic from there basically wrong.

Two. People have a vested intrest in beating up the difference between the gym/dojo and everywhere else because it makes their own methods seem more relevant than they are.

Three. You are too sensitive to have real conversations about these topics properly and so don't really get these concepts. Because sometimes they are just ego destroying hard truths. And it sucks to have to face that.

So while a good self defence system would carefully work the nuances between what works for them in a controlled environmemt using basically labratory testing and well thought out hypothesis. people don't. Either because they just don't have the grounding to understand what they are doing or are to biased by self intrest to care what sort of result they get.

And that of course the combination of these factors puts out so much misinformation that trying to wade through the bias and the BS. can be quite challenging.

And so back to TKD. yes it can work in self defence provided it works to its strengths and reduces its weaknesses. None of which is its inability to function on wet grass.

That is just made up.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
5,692
Reaction score
1,366
Yeah three points. Just sometimes it takes me a few goes to get the concept concise.

One. The argument that a gym or a dojo is a sterilized world where real life doesn't happen is a fallacy. Arguing from that idea makes any logic from there basically wrong.

...

And so back to TKD. yes it can work in self defence provided it works to its strengths and reduces its weaknesses. None of which is its inability to function on wet grass.

That is just made up.

The discussion of wet grass was more aimed at a question about halfway through the thread, which was regarding kicks like the tornado kick or a spinning hook kick, and that as the ground gets more slippery, the risk of injury when falling becomes greater, or the rules change (i.e. in Olympic TKD you can't grab your opponent's legs) you're going to have to change which techniques you would want to use. This sub-discussion is not about Taekwondo in general, but specifically about the more energetic techniques and whether or not they're practical in the real world.

My dojang has mats. They're never covered in rain or ice, and my feet never get stuck in them like they can in mud. They're never hard like a wood floor or concrete. My opponents have rules they must follow, such as no grappling, no strikes below the belt, no punches to the head, and no knee/elbow strikes. I'm usually wearing pads, as are my opponents. In sparring, you fight a single person in your weight class, which does not always happen out in the world. My opponents don't have weapons in the dojang. I don't have my carry weapon when I'm sparring. I'm not allowed to go for soft targets in sparring, like the groin or eyes. There aren't tight spaces like a hallway or elevator. We have good lighting.

To say that the gym or dojo isn't sterilized is what I'd consider a fallacy. Training sport Taekwondo (specifically sport Taekwondo, as that's where the wet grass discussion started) has a huge number of differences between the dojang and the real world.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,494
Reaction score
5,401
The discussion of wet grass was more aimed at a question about halfway through the thread, which was regarding kicks like the tornado kick or a spinning hook kick, and that as the ground gets more slippery, the risk of injury when falling becomes greater, or the rules change (i.e. in Olympic TKD you can't grab your opponent's legs) you're going to have to change which techniques you would want to use. This sub-discussion is not about Taekwondo in general, but specifically about the more energetic techniques and whether or not they're practical in the real world.

My dojang has mats. They're never covered in rain or ice, and my feet never get stuck in them like they can in mud. They're never hard like a wood floor or concrete. My opponents have rules they must follow, such as no grappling, no strikes below the belt, no punches to the head, and no knee/elbow strikes. I'm usually wearing pads, as are my opponents. In sparring, you fight a single person in your weight class, which does not always happen out in the world. My opponents don't have weapons in the dojang. I don't have my carry weapon when I'm sparring. I'm not allowed to go for soft targets in sparring, like the groin or eyes. There aren't tight spaces like a hallway or elevator. We have good lighting.

To say that the gym or dojo isn't sterilized is what I'd consider a fallacy. Training sport Taekwondo (specifically sport Taekwondo, as that's where the wet grass discussion started) has a huge number of differences between the dojang and the real world.

Yeah. Good old no 2. The self defence marketing machine. This is why boxing doesn't work. (Broken hands) BJJ doesn't work (the floor is lava) Judo doesn't work (T shirts)

And yet you get popped in the head with a tornado kick and you are still going to have a bad day.


By the way. Just apart from that line of reasoning that he will do this then I will do that and so on.

The head which automatically goes forwards to defend a punch breaking your hand so badly you can't use it at all. Goes backwards for the palm heel so you don't wrist lock yourself.
 
Last edited:

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,494
Reaction score
5,401
Catching kicks cos of the rules?

Is this where I just drop the mike? Street fight with kicks on freaking ice. Ok mabye concrete. Looks slippery as all get out.
 

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
5,692
Reaction score
1,366
Hahahahaha! That video is obviously staged. You can tell he's pulling his kicks on the "finishing" moves on each of them, and the third guy goes down on a back kick that missed him by like 2 whole feet.
 

Latest Discussions

Top