TKD is Weak on the street as a self defense?

[Dirty Dog]

Better to be the bad guy than the victim.

Even better to be the good guy.

 

[drop bear]

Best to be neither, brother.

Yeah sort of. I think people confuse being a good guy. With rationalising why they technically were one. Even though their actions hurt people.

If I have to be the bad guy I don't try to make it out that it was good. If I was to justify myself it would be that it was worth it.

 

[DaveB]

No idea What you two are arguing about but it's definitely Drop Bear's fault.

Ok I'm caught up now. DB is doing his thing where he substitutes argument for obstinance and obtusity.

I trained tkd in a university sports hall, either with mats or without. It was never slippery. We never trained for any eventuality other than what would occur within the rules of a tkd tournament.

I learned a great deal about fighting and extrapolated that knowledge for use with hands and in other areas of free fighting, but nothing about that environment was similar to when I trained outside in the forest.

Same with boxing, Thai boxing, karate, Tiger crane kungfu etc etc etc.

Better to be the bad guy than the victim.

So where do you place being the village idiot?

 

[drop bear]

Ok I'm caught up now. DB is doing his thing where he substitutes argument for obstinance and obtusity.

I trained tkd in a university sports hall, either with mats or without. It was never slippery. We never trained for any eventuality other than what would occur within the rules of a tkd tournament.

I learned a great deal about fighting and extrapolated that knowledge for use with hands and in other areas of free fighting, but nothing about that environment was similar to when I trained outside in the forest.

Same with boxing, Thai boxing, karate, Tiger crane kungfu etc etc etc.

So where do you place being the village idiot?

Doesn't matter. The slippery grass thing was a lie. You can stick kicks on wet grass fine.

Showed a video of someone doing it.

Maybe it was just you. Not your training.

I mean I sparred today kicked a guy into the bags and went him as he bounced off and almost got swept by two other guys rolling.

Mental elasticity and dealing with the unexpected is very important in being successful in competition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Doesn't matter. The slippery grass thing was a lie. You can stick kicks on wet grass fine.

Showed a video of someone doing it.

Maybe it was just you. Not your training.

I mean I sparred today kicked a guy into the bags and went him as he bounced off and almost got swept by two other guys rolling.

Mental elasticity and dealing with the unexpected is very important in being successful in competition.

A single example, by the way, is anecdotal evidence.

Wet grass is slipperier than many surfaces. It's not impossible to kick on, but if someone's kicks (like my round kicks, probably) need more traction than it provides, then it is too slippery for those kicks. I'm certain someone with smoother kicks than mine would have different math than I do. How do I know my kicks aren't a good idea there? I tried them out - got some evidence.

 

[skribs]

A single example, by the way, is anecdotal evidence.

Wet grass is slipperier than many surfaces. It's not impossible to kick on, but if someone's kicks (like my round kicks, probably) need more traction than it provides, then it is too slippery for those kicks. I'm certain someone with smoother kicks than mine would have different math than I do. How do I know my kicks aren't a good idea there? I tried them out - got some evidence.

There's also a difference between grass that's covered in dew, and grass on soggy ground that's absorbed all the water it can.

In risk assessment, there are two factors you must consider: the likelihood or frequency of an adverse event happening, and the damage that event can cause.

As the surface becomes more slippery, you are more likely to slip. You can use your technique to counter that, but it will often come at the cost of speed and power. You see this in sports: gridiron football players playing on soggy grass or on snow can't cut as hard, and they can't gain as much power with their legs. The other factor is the damage an event can cause. Slipping on wet grass isn't too bad, until the other guy sits on you and starts pummeling. Slipping on asphalt is going to be worse than slipping on the mat, even if it's less likely.

As you evaluate what does and doesn't work in self defense, you have to consider the environment. Are there hazards? Are there weapons you (or your adversary) can use? These aren't considerations in the highly controlled sport of Taekwondo sparring.

 

[drop bear]

A single example, by the way, is anecdotal evidence.

Wet grass is slipperier than many surfaces. It's not impossible to kick on, but if someone's kicks (like my round kicks, probably) need more traction than it provides, then it is too slippery for those kicks. I'm certain someone with smoother kicks than mine would have different math than I do. How do I know my kicks aren't a good idea there? I tried them out - got some evidence.

You can't roundhouse kick on grass and you think that is an issue with roundhouse kicks?

 

[drop bear]

These aren't considerations in the highly controlled sport of Taekwondo sparring.

Really?

people need to look and asses what is. Not just believe what they think should be.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Really?
people need to look and asses what is. Not just believe what they think should be.

OK... so let's see what relationship these examples have to sparring....

10 - They're infants. Really? That's supposed to be an example of TKD sparring in general?
9 - Gynastics, not TKD, and nothing whatsoever to do with sparring.
8 - Not sparring and pretty much Silly Buggers, but he did succeed in the break despite the wall breaking.
7 - Not sparring.
6 - Not sparring.
5 - Not sparring.
4 - Not sparring.
3 - Not sparring.
2 - Not sparring.
1 - Not sparring. And another example of gymnastics, not TKD sparring.

So was there a point you were trying to make? Did you actually watch the video before you posted it?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You can't roundhouse kick on grass and you think that is an issue with roundhouse kicks?

No, it's an issue with my roundhouse kicks. Maybe read my post (where I said someone with better kicks would have different math).

 

[drop bear]

OK... so let's see what relationship these examples have to sparring....

10 - They're infants. Really? That's supposed to be an example of TKD sparring in general?
9 - Gynastics, not TKD, and nothing whatsoever to do with sparring.
8 - Not sparring and pretty much Silly Buggers, but he did succeed in the break despite the wall breaking.
7 - Not sparring.
6 - Not sparring.
5 - Not sparring.
4 - Not sparring.
3 - Not sparring.
2 - Not sparring.
1 - Not sparring. And another example of gymnastics, not TKD sparring.

So was there a point you were trying to make? Did you actually watch the video before you posted it?

So the guys in the TKD uniforms were not doing TKD. they were doing gymnastics?

The point is real life happens everywhere. People slip over, make mistakes and have to address real world problems everywhere there is a real world.

And this includes training.

Real life doesn't just happen on grass.

 

[drop bear]

No, it's an issue with my roundhouse kicks. Maybe read my post (where I said someone with better kicks would have different math).

Ok. But my basic premis is that you can actually do the kick to some sort of usable level.

That was my origional point.

Doing grass specific self defence on grass is not going to help you if you just cant do the technique.

So I am not sure how the fact that you cant do roundhouse kicks is relevent.

I mean I cant do tornado kicks. But that is not an issue with the environment so it doesnt factor.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So the guys in the TKD uniforms were not doing TKD. they were doing gymnastics?

The point is real life happens everywhere. People slip over, make mistakes and have to address real world problems everywhere there is a real world.

And this includes training.

Real life doesn't just happen on grass.

You posted the video in response to a post that specifically referred to the controlled sport of TKD sparring.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. But my basic premis is that you can actually do the kick to some sort of usable level.

That was my origional point.

Doing grass specific self defence on grass is not going to help you if you just cant do the technique.

So I am not sure how the fact that you cant do roundhouse kicks is relevent.

I mean I cant do tornado kicks. But that is not an issue with the environment so it doesnt factor.

Yes, and I never said grass makes kicks impossible. I said a slippery surface (like wet grass) changes things, and should change some of your choices. Just like there are things I won't choose to do when my knee is being bitchy. You've somehow lost the thread of what you started griping about.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So the guys in the TKD uniforms were not doing TKD. they were doing gymnastics?

That is correct. I can do TKD in street clothes. They can do gymnastics in a dobak.
When you post the video in response to a statement about the very controlled (and limited) world of Olympic sparring, it's not unreasonable to expect the response to have something to do with the very controlled (and limited) world of Olympic sparring.
Unless you're suggesting that people suddenly halt a match or a fight to go break boards? Or do handsprings?
I didn't think so.

 

[drop bear]

You posted the video in response to a post that specifically referred to the controlled sport of TKD sparring.

Fine. slipping over during the highly controlled sport of sparring then.

Same point buy the way. real life still happens during sparring.

 

[drop bear]

That is correct. I can do TKD in street clothes. They can do gymnastics in a dobak.
When you post the video in response to a statement about the very controlled (and limited) world of Olympic sparring, it's not unreasonable to expect the response to have something to do with the very controlled (and limited) world of Olympic sparring.
Unless you're suggesting that people suddenly halt a match or a fight to go break boards? Or do handsprings?
I didn't think so.

What olympic sparring?

TKD. sparring.

And I am pretty sure they were TKD guys not gymnasts dressed up.

What is your definition of highly controlled by the way?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What olympic sparring?

TKD. sparring.

And I am pretty sure they were TKD guys not gymnasts dressed up.

What is your definition of highly controlled by the way?

I think the term "highly controlled" was to refer to the environment and rules. That's how I read it, anyway.

 

[Dirty Dog]

What olympic sparring?

That is what skribs does. He's been very clear about that.

TKD. sparring.

No such thing. Or rather, it's so broad a term as to be meaningless. There are at least a dozen different rulesets used by various branches of TKD and various times.

And I am pretty sure they were TKD guys not gymnasts dressed up.

What they were doing is gymnastics.
Unless you're trying to claim people do handsprings during a fight?
I didn't think so.

What is your definition of highly controlled by the way?

Pretty much what they were doing in that video. Very restricted target areas, very limited number of techniques, judges who stop the match at the slightest provocation...

 

[drop bear]

I think the term "highly controlled" was to refer to the environment and rules. That's how I read it, anyway.

OK two things.

If I can kick a person and knock them out. I can use that as a tool in self defence. It doesn't matter if it is an accepted self defence tool or not.


And if you get to suggest street vs sport and controlled environments.

I assume I get to suggest intoxicated attackers not wearing head gear who have never dealt with a TKD kick his life.