TKD and real self defense

[Twin Fist]

Again, it's good to see you insult people when you feel it's OK. The sign of a true martial artist.

I have not insulted you anywhere in this thread, if you have to make stuff up to make a point, you dont have one.

also:
You said you had no exposure to self-defense aspects of TKD

this is also a lie, as this isnt what i said, i said that the SD in TKD is very shallow, and leaves out many things. See here:

"TKD, in and of itself, lacks depth in self defense"

thats all I said.

this is an opinion, and true IMO

nowhere did i say there was NO Sd in TKD

thats two times you have stated falsehoods, stop now while you are behind

 

[dancingalone]

If you are ever around my neck of the woods, come see me and I will show you how it can be done. It is so sad that alot of TKD instructor are just about sport and nothing else.

If I ever make it out to Arlington, you bet I'll drop by and introduce myself. I'm sure we can have some fun and even learn something. I've been listing some informal bunkai for the Chang Hon and Palgwe forms based on the Goju-Ryu karate I study, and I always wanted to teach a TKD class using that material to see how oddball the students will think I am.

 

[dancingalone]

The fact is that Taekwon-Do has plenty of self-defense techniques in it. Your particular branch may've stopped at kicking and punching but others didn't.

I'll agree with that. Not all tae kwon do is equal to one another. Some strains, IMO the older ones with stronger links to the kwans, are more effective for combat than others. Of course, the instructor plays a bigger role in this than the style, so be sure to find a good one, since he will trump all else.

 

[goingd]

Mandate, no. Educate, yes. I refuse to stay silent within the mediums I have available to me such as this forum, lest the general public believes that the typical studio on the corner is ALL there is available to train in.

There's a hunger out there for solid traditional martial arts taught by knowledgeable, yet forward looking instructors. I see it as my duty to make people aware there are more options to train in than McDojos or MMA gyms.

I believe that if we present a traditional, legitimate alternative to the mass of mcdojangs, people will recognize the difference between good and bad. If our orange belts look like everyone else's black belts, and we make that noticed, we have done our job. I completely agree - there is no reason to stay silent. We cannot control what others do, but we have complete control of what we say.

 

[Twin Fist]

I'll agree with that. Not all tae kwon do is equal to one another. Some strains, IMO the older ones with stronger links to the kwans, are more effective for combat than others. Of course, the instructor plays a bigger role in this than the style, so be sure to find a good one, since he will trump all else.

this is, in my experience, very true, and my line, is almost unchanged since 1959. it is very SD oriented, but it simply doesnt have the depth of SD information that other systems have

thats just a fact

 

[goingd]

Twin Fist, I completely agree that SEVERAL Taekwondo schools and instructors have added different aspects of self defense so that there can be some understandable self defense in their curriculum. However, those people do not define Taekwondo. Those who understand more than the outward aspects of the forms have plenty of self defense to teach, without adding a damn thing.

I certainly do not have the years that you do in Taekwondo. I understand well enough how to use an inside block to put someone in an arm bar, how to use a low block to drop someone one their back; I understand that every set up for a block, a strike or even a kick is itself a legitimate motion that can be used to parry, deflect, grab and strike.

I spent a year studying Kenpo Karate. I have a lot of respect for it. However, it did not make me see the flaw in my Taekwondo. On the contrary, it helped me a great deal to better understand the capabilities of Taekwondo.

When my master trained with Larry Tatum, and he sparred his black belts, he did not particularly get his "*** handed" to him. His kicking was enough to stay on top.

 

[Twin Fist]

and the kicks might keep you safe, but once they slip past that kick, which I might add, you cant do on the street in jeans, they are inside, and thats where TKD is weak, and no one can deny that

now think about that

real fights happen at close range, and thats the big gaping HOLE in TKD

thats sort of important

 

[Tames D]

real fights happen at close range

Depends on who controls the fight...

 

[chrispillertkd]

I have not insulted you anywhere in this thread, if you have to make stuff up to make a point, you dont have one.

also:
You said you had no exposure to self-defense aspects of TKD

this is also a lie, as this isnt what i said, i said that the SD in TKD is very shallow, and leaves out many things. See here:

"TKD, in and of itself, lacks depth in self defense"

thats all I said.

But this is not true. I suppose it would have been more accurate for me to say that you had very little exposure to TKD's self-defense aspect. My apologies for saying "no exposure" when saying "very litle" or "inadequate" would have apparently better described your situation.

this is an opinion, and true IMO

It os your opinion. And it is wrong.

nowhere did i say there was NO Sd in TKD

thats two times you have stated falsehoods, stop now while you are behind

Oh, please. Any such "falsehood" on my part was unintentional. You have been going on about how TKD doesn't cut it in the SD department. I disagree and have, unfortunately, the experience to know that it is effective.

You're the one who said there is a lack of SD effectiveness in TKD. The fault lies not with the style itself.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Twin Fist]

gee, you are SOOO Cool!!

 

[chrispillertkd]

gee, you are SOOO Cool!!

Umm, thanks! ... I think.

Pax,

Chris

 

[goingd]

and the kicks might keep you safe, but once they slip past that kick, which I might add, you cant do on the street in jeans, they are inside, and thats where TKD is weak, and no one can deny that

now think about that

real fights happen at close range, and thats the big gaping HOLE in TKD

thats sort of important

I am not making any assumptions, but I feel a little bit like you have ignored everything I have said about the use of the techniques in the forms. I pointed out a great advantage of kicks, but I pointed out a lot more about the use of self defense found in Taekwondo, yet you only responded to what I said about kicking.
Kicks become very useful once you have the range for them (and if you practice adapting to the use of kicks while wearing snug jeans like I do). And even so, several Taekwondoists can deliver great kicks from a close range. Taekwondo is, frankly, much more than kicking.

 

[Twin Fist]

not trying to ignore anything.

let me make sure i understand what you are saying.

you think that the kata applications make up for the lack of focus on self defense?

 

[goingd]

not trying to ignore anything.

let me make sure i understand what you are saying.

you think that the kata applications make up for the lack of focus on self defense?

Not remotely close. I have a hard time believing that is what you have gotten out of what I said, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
The form applications, with their limitless uses, are self defense when practiced the right way. Any lack of focus or understanding of self defense lies with the instructor, not the style.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

For the most part alot of folks believe TKD SD principle to be weak and not for today world. What is your SD syllibus and how often do you really work on it?

It used to be very comprehensive. Joint locks, knife defense, gun defense, the whole nine yards.

Once our GM introduced hapkido and it became established, our taekwondo became very sport focused, and it became very clear once I signed up for hapkido where all of his SD was culled from.

This has been a process that has occurred over the course of a year and a half. He does not charge a separate fee for kendo or hapkido, so his rationale is that if you want sword fighting, show up for kendo class and if you want SD, show up for Hapkido class.

To be fair, he was a hapkido instructor in the ROK, and he can focus the class entirely on SD by confining it to the hapkido program.

Our TKD is now very kicking oriented and still contains what rudimentary SD one gets from the KKW curriculum, but it is mostly strikes and applications of poomsae. There are still some nice, useful grabs and some knee and elbow strikes. We have stepped into the realm of open tournaments this month and he wants to focus the taekwondo program on tournament competiton, which means poomsae, WTF sparring, and breaking.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How much contact is there in TKD, or does it vary by school?

Varries from org to org and school to school within each org, though with WTF, you can pretty much establish that it is quite a bit of contact, with sparring generally full contact, but with hogu. So it depends on how you qualify contact.

Daniel

 

[StuartA]

For the most part alot of folks believe TKD SD principle to be weak and not for today world. What is your SD syllibus and how often do you really work on it?

Our club works like this:

All students learn patterns and follow up with realistic applications to the pattern techniques. Senior grades will cover this in more depth.

All students spar (comp style), however, 4th kups and above (adults) do Traditional Sparring which is basically a heavy contact, anything goes type of sparring (includes knees, throws, take downs etc.). They also do hosinsul and 1 step sparring.

Every 6 months we run a self protection course which rounds up the self defence techniques we teach in class to all students (except the tiny ones) with Self protection theory work (ie. visual scanning etc.).

Teens and adults learn anti-weapons stuff (knife, stick, gun), though the higher the grade, the more the focus on it.

All students learn throws, pre-emptive striking, as well as concentrating on power in their kicks, strikes etc.

Virtually everything is gradeable, so theres no skipping bits!

Stuart

 

[Twin Fist]

Not remotely close. I have a hard time believing that is what you have gotten out of what I said, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
The form applications, with their limitless uses, are self defense when practiced the right way. Any lack of focus or understanding of self defense lies with the instructor, not the style.

no, i had a very long, very BAD weekend, so I am not at 100% right now. forgive me.

i get what you are saying, i just disagree. its ok,
I wanted more than TKD offered. Others might not, and thats ok.

 

[StuartA]

TKD is what Jhoon Rhee brought over in 1959. Some katas, about a dozen punches and kicks and the standard variations, 2 take downs, the concept of one steps, and not much else.And that is ok

Sorry, but that is just incorrect. Jhoon Rhee (a pioneer in the USA) took only a portion of TKD to the states because at that time, TKD was still being developed, in fact it wasnt completed fully until the 1980's! So GM Rhee missed out on 21 years of its development!

Though I believe that Gen Choi's system is just one in TKD, one only has to look at his books to see there is more to TKD than what you quote -

- Locks are in there
- throwing is in there
- 3200 individual techniques are in there
- many different types of sparring are in there
- many takedowns are in there
- Anti knife and anti stick/pole defences are in there (as well as hundreds more and gun defences in GM Kim Bok Man's book)
- Plus loads more.

Although I did a few other systems in my younger years (Wing Chun, JJ and Judo and trained for many years with a Karate guy), I technically have only done TKD and have found all this stuff to be in it IF a school is following the full syllabus. And yes, I have had much exposure to many otehr martial arts through IAOMAS and TBH, they are no better/worse than good TKD when it comes to SD!

Looking at many of todays schools and even schools that have been around ages, they do teach a limited version of TKD and simply call it TKD (usally patterns, comp sparring and destruction) - so i can understand peoples POV's when they say its limited - but thats not TKD fault, but the school/instructors!

Stuart

 

[Twin Fist]

valid point stuart