Time does not equal skill

[dosk3n]

Good morning guys and gals, hope you had a good weekend?

Ive met a few random chunners while training at the weekends over the last few months and we welcome anyone to turn up but what I have noticed is a lot of people who talk big.

Recently there was someone who said they have trained for 12 years and has been told he is a very advanced student by his old sifu and that he could soon be able to teach. He said he hasnt trained in a little while so said he had to brush up as was a little rusty.

Well Ive only been training a year and a bit and managed to completly control him in Chi Sau very easily as his hands were every where. Now I do train 4 days a week and he did say he hadnt trained in a little while but he didnt even know the full 1st form fully as we had to end up showing him, but he knew little bits of each of the forms.

He mentioned all of these different Sifu's he had had lessons from also but as the day went on I wasnt sure if these were just videos and books he learnt from as well as maybe a few classes as he was mentioning all the different ways you can do certain things but these differences were usually the differences that are between lineages. I do think he was a little slow though, and not the measurement of speed kind, if you know what I mean.

So it was one of those days where I learnt a life lesson and I have came to understand that time in training (12 years etc) does not equal skill.

 

[coffeerox]

So it was one of those days where I learnt a life lesson and I have came to understand that time in training (12 years etc) does not equal skill.

I even posted this in the "New in Wing Chun" thread but of course, it got dismissed. People need to realize that concepts are universal and can be applied elsewhere.

 

[thefearofme]

That is really true time does not equal skill. It's how much training you do and what kind of training you learn. The more effort you make into something the better you understand that something. As for you saying about the person who did WC for 12 years. That person sounds like a joke to me. He might have different sifu's and learned tricks but never practiced them or even understood the basic concepts of WC.

 

[Rion]

Someone can say they have trained for over 20 years but if you don't put the effort in and you are all over the place with your training, then it doesn't equal to much.

If the guy in question that you where talking about only had one lesson every two weeks then of course there would be huge gaps in his knowledge, which you could find and attack.

 

[bully]

There are people like this in all walks of life.

He could be like me, I trained WC in the 90's and maybe got to a low intermediate level. I had done the 3 forms, but did not really have Chum Kui down to a tee. I then stopped due to personal reasons.

I started again just messing around a couple of years a go, training with one of my old training partners now and again. No one teaches here you see.
I went to see Kevin Chan for a day last year and then trained on and off with some of the guys I used to train with. That came to a halt a the beginning of this year and I have just done what I can since.

Now I could say....

Yeah I know the 3 forms (I dont), been training since the 90's (not true really), yeah I know Master Chan and train with him (I only went once!!) Yeah I organsised a class here, probably could teach it. (NO way could I)

I am a novice and nothing more, and I don't mind admitting it. Some people have a problem saying that, I am unsure why. We all have to start somewhere.

Maybe a Walter Mitty type??

When I went to that Gary Lam seminar in London I stated I was a novice and did not have much chi sau experience, which showed when I chi sau with the other more experienced guys. Imagine what an idiot I would have looked if I said what I put above!!!! They were all really patient and helped me out with tips etc.

You will just set yourself up for a fall, it's like if one of your work mates says "Hey Bully, fancy a game of tennis later mate"
"Yeah ok, why not"
"You any good mate"
"Yeah I'm awesome"

Even if you are, you sound like a dick. Let your game do the talking, be gracious and offer help if you are better.

Sorry for the long post but this winds me up and gives all sports and MA a bad name.

 

[coffeerox]

I dug up the post I made a few days earlier

edit: I notice you say "no matter how long" this is wrong. Just because you have time does not mean you can become better than somebody. Time is certainly a factor, but quality of training within that time frame that you have is more important.

 

[dosk3n]

Exactly right cofferox just what I put also.

I didnt read that other thread you posted on though as if it gets too long I get lazy and start reading or if its got more than 2 pages before Ive started reading I wont read it.

I say I get lazy, its mainly Im at work and not meant to be online so I do it quickly.

How ever if he had said nothing came and trained it would have been fine but he made me feel embaresed for him since he said he was so good but then reminded me of a new starter.

Although I do wish him luck in his journey. Just reminded me of someone that likes kung fu movies more than someone that trains kung fu.

 

[zepedawingchun]

. . . . but what I have noticed is a lot of people who talk big.

Recently there was someone who said they have trained for 12 years and has been told he is a very advanced student by his old sifu and that he could soon be able to teach. He said he hasnt trained in a little while so said he had to brush up as was a little rusty.

Well Ive only been training a year and a bit and managed to completly control him in Chi Sau very easily as his hands were every where. Now I do train 4 days a week and he did say he hadnt trained in a little while but he didnt even know the full 1st form fully as we had to end up showing him, but he knew little bits of each of the forms.

He mentioned all of these different Sifu's he had had lessons from also but as the day went on I wasnt sure if these were just videos and books he learnt from as well as maybe a few classes as he was mentioning all the different ways you can do certain things but these differences were usually the differences that are between lineages. . . .

The guy may have been an advanced student when he was training with his sifu, but it's obvious he didn't train with a sifu for 12 years. Maybe the first 2 years were with a sifu, but nothing more. Looks like another Wing Chun frawd or geek to tarnish the good name and reputation of our art.

dosk3n, the guy was probably a liar and a frawd, trying to impress you with his supposed knowledge of WC until you let your hands do the talking. That's the way to measure someone's skill in Wing Chun, let their hands do the talking.

 

[mook jong man]

People say a lot of things , a lot talk themselves up , and very few talk themselves down.

But the hands don't lie , once you touch hands with someone you can tell how much training they've done.

 

[coffeerox]

Looks like another Wing Chun frawd or geek to tarnish the good name and reputation of our art.

dosk3n opened up an important discussion for today's Wing Chun. We have people like that guy who claims to have been taught for 12 years but in actuality have the training of a, (maybe I'm being generous here) an intermediate level student, yet, this guy is on his way to teaching!!

I don't need to tell you how dangerous this is for his potential students to learn these techniques and then get creamed out there in the street. It's a good thing that I got beat in sparring first to know that I had serious flaws I needed to fix.

This goes to my next point. I've seen sparring and sparring events with Wing Chun in it going up against other styles such as Muay Thai and their boxers beat the **** out of a WC student. So bad that it made me wonder why or how they let the WC guy step into the ring into the first place. These are guys that train for 2+ years.

What is this time trained really telling me? Nothing that I need to know about. I can at least trust a recognized and respected Sifu (unlike the 12 years guy) to pass the system down the way it's supposed to be done, however, another important aspect that I feel is lacking in Wing Chun is the question of if this teacher will hone my fighting ability with the art he taught me?

If I was given the option to train with a WC teacher or Paul Vunak, I'd go Paul Vunak any day because he teaches you how to FIGHT. He has that killer instinct and intent that I felt Wing Chun as martial art was perfect for. I believe that these days, very few teachers out there can even teach the art to fight at this level.

zepeda, if you want it so much, you can have your precious WC name and your style and I, as a self-trainer won't be calling what I do Wing Chun. What I do is closer to Jeet Kune Do Concepts and through that, will free me to be a better fighter. I am more suited to a 'young man's' art so yes, there will be elements from WC and JFJKD however it's not any of those systems.

 

[zepedawingchun]

I believe that these days, very few teachers out there can even teach the art to fight at this level..

You obviously haven't seen the right Wing Chun teachers yet. You need to come to Atlanta, GA, I can introduce you to several Wing Chun teachers that are great fighters and will change your mind about Wing Chun in about 2 seconds. And I'm sure there are a few on this forum as well. I understand, you're still young and have a few more years to live, you'll meet them.

zepeda, if you want it so much, you can have your precious WC name and your style and I, as a self-trainer won't be calling what I do Wing Chun.

Good idea. Name and reputation is important, even in this day and age. Because sometimes that's how people meet you, know you, and understand you. It may determine whether you are a success or a failure in life, business, or anything else.

What I do is closer to Jeet Kune Do Concepts and through that, will free me to be a better fighter. I am more suited to a 'young man's' art so yes, there will be elements from WC and JFJKD however it's not any of those systems.

Free you to be a better fighter? Just because you copy the ideas of JKD Concepts (or anything else), doesn't make you a better fighter. And martial arts has no distinction of age or gender. Besides, the majority of Jun Fan JKD concepts came from Wing Chun from which Bruce Lee borrowed.

You can do whatever you want, self train JKD Concepts, Muay Thai, Kali, or Wing Chun. It doesn't matter and you can use it however you want. But if you're going to bastardize something and take from this art or that art, at least give it credit by saying I got it from this art or that art. Even if you do it badly. But don't call it that art because without proper instruction and learning the whole system to back it up, it's not complete and it's not the system. It's like taking an engine (or parts) off a Ferrari and putting them in an old VW Beetle, you got a very fast Beetle that amazes people, but it the end, it's still a Beetle.

 

[coffeerox]

Just because you copy the ideas of JKD Concepts (or anything else)

I'm not copying the ideas of anybody else's JKD concepts (such as the specific style people teach), rather, it's my own personal JKD. I'm not even calling it JKD because there's legit groups of JFJKD out there and I don't want to step on their turf like I did on Wing Chun. Like Bruce said. If there has to be an argument about the name of what you do, let there be no name at all. Using no way as way. I'll let you have your silly little names, titles or whatever the hell.

But if you're going to bastardize something and take from this art or that art

You would think that I would bastardize something because I self-train but that is not the case at all. I don't bastardize anything I do. I think you need to lay off of the performance analysis until you actually see me in real life.

It's like taking an engine (or parts) off a Ferrari and putting them in an old VW Beetle, you got a very fast Beetle that amazes people, but it the end, it's still a Beetle.

Try telling that to Paul Vunak. You would be shocked at what he did to chain punching and cannibalizing parts of systems into his own system but I would GUARANTEE YOU, 100% that this guy will destroy you.

Nobody, including me of course, is claiming this system or that system, like i said, it remains nameless. If it has to have a name, it's total fighting LOL I don't know if you got that reference but whatever.

edit:

don't get me wrong. I will receive proper instruction from the arts that I choose, which includes Wing Chun. For now, this is just a little idea that I have.

 

[BloodMoney]

Met plenty of guys like the OP mentioned.

In all honesty if youve seriously trained WC for 12 years you will never EVER forget Siu Lim Tao aka 1st form. If you do then you clearly havent even got past the most basic start of chun (ie: learning the 1st form). In fact I would go as far as to say that if you seriously did WC for a single year you should never forget the form, because theoretically youve done the form 365 times

My master said the one thing that annoyed him was guys who came back after years and couldnt remember the form, and I can see why.

 

[coffeerox]

Free you to be a better fighter? Just because you copy the ideas of JKD Concepts (or anything else), doesn't make you a better fighter. And martial arts has no distinction of age or gender.

Yes. Free me to a better fighter. Without the ties to Wing Chun, I can focus on fighting and become proficient in that. I don't need you telling me that I can only learn sensitivity from a Wing Chun teacher when I've thrown that entire system out the door and instead focus on accurate striking, footwork and evasion. The best MMA fighters don't use any trapping at all and they are successful.

I say young man's art because it is based on physical attributes, speed, strength, stamina, etc. What people refer to as a 'hard' or external style.

Chinaboxer talks about this occasionally in his videos. What he practices is the 'old man's' Wing Chun that doesn't rely on physical strength or conditioning. Completely internal.

What makes me a good fighter, zepeda, is that I've actually been in real street fights, from growing up, to adult life (well not anymore, NOW) so I understand what it is and how dire that situation is. I'm actually at a point where I can avoid the fight completely through diplomacy.

But best believe, if I'm in one, I'm coming out the victor. I don't care how skilled you or anybody are in martial arts because you do not know the level of brutality I will go to protect myself. If I have to shoot you, I'm doing it. I will go for the critical shot and if I don't hit it, I'll walk up to you when you are down and get that shot.

I am an extremely dangerous person and when I have proper training, I'll be even more so. Even though I am dangerous, I'm actually a very cool and nice guy. I follow all the principles of being a good person, not just in real life but online as well. If i disrespect somebody, it is for good reason but deal with me like I'm a fellow human, and you'll see that I can be great to have around. I'm not asking you to respect me, or anything like that. Just talk to someone in a humane fashion and expect to receive the same.

People that know me, love me because I stand up for them, encourage them to be the best they can be. They can rely on me to be a good friend. Just an example, but my friend was in jail for 2 years and nobody, not even his family wrote him letters but I wrote for all 2 years and called the 1/2 a year he was in the halfway house from beginning to end.

Being a good fighter is more than about martial arts. It encompasses so much. You know *A* range of combat but there's another side to it that you do not possess. You probably won't ever know but I'm happy that I'm privileged to understand it.

 

[BloodMoney]

But best believe, if I'm in one, I'm coming out the victor. I don't care how skilled you or anybody are in martial arts because you do not know the level of brutality I will go to protect myself.

Uh...okay.

You keep going with that and see how far it gets you mate

 

[coffeerox]

Uh...okay

BloodMoney, you would do well to listen. You have no idea what I know. My friend has actually been in those situations day in and out, and the horrible things people do. You can't ever be ready for things like this but you can be more informed. I'm just saying, don't dismiss it.

 

[cwk]

Coffeerox,
This is isn't a personal attack on you or anything like that so please don't take it as one.
it's just that this is the 3rd or 4th thread that has gone from the original OP to a bickering match between yourself and others.
now, I'm not saying it's completely all your fault, it takes 2 (or more) to tango, but I think you really need to chill out mate.
I personally have no problem with you training yourself and calling it what you want, that's your choice and I respect that you defend your choices. But saying things like " I'm dangerous" or saying that you would shoot someone is just taking things in the wrong direction and pretty much inviting people to start having a go at you. This then gets you on the defensive and then we have another thread that goes down the drain, with pages of bickering.

I know sometimes people like to antagonize you but in this thread nobody made any statement whatsoever about you personally.
so please, for the good of the forum,
Chill out mate and don't take things so seriously.
I wish you all the best in your martial journey.
cwk

 

[coffeerox]

cwk: I agree and I apologize to everyone in the thread. I'll add zepeda to my ignore list.

 

[BloodMoney]

BloodMoney, you would do well to listen. You have no idea what I know. My friend has actually been in those situations day in and out, and the horrible things people do. You can't ever be ready for things like this but you can be more informed. I'm just saying, don't dismiss it.

You talk like your the only person that would be brutal to defend himself. Or the only person that got into fights as a kid, or has natural fighting ability. Look around at the forum your on.

Coming onto a martial arts forum and saying "I am a dangerous man" is kinda asking for ridicule man. Are you trying to troll or just subconsciously doing it? Theres guys round here that make me look like a little girl and ive been training since I was ten years old in numerous arts. Am I confident in my abilities? Of course, im an instructor I have to be. Do I walk around telling people "they have no idea what I could do to them?". Uh...yeah not really.

I have no idea what you know, no. I have seen a few of your posts around and gather you are largely self trained, and thats fine. But some of us here are disciplined, studious people whove trained in martial arts our whole lives and are a bit sick of the old "I dont need training I just go psycho" speech. Heard it a thousand times at a thousand bars and parties mate, and quite frankly its boring.

 

[coffeerox]

Heard it a thousand times at a thousand bars and parties mate, and quite frankly its boring.

Bars and parties is not even the beginning. The realities of combat go far beyond petty **** like that.

But some of us here are disciplined, studious people whove trained in martial arts our whole lives

I may not be trained in MA, but I'm disciplined and studious too but my life experience is a bit different than everyone else's.

"I dont need training I just go psycho" speech.

That's not it at all. Actually what I said was very real and downright frightening if you knew what I knew. What is your martial arts going to do for you if you get ran over by a car expecting an honest fight? There is no honest fight. What's your martial arts going to do for you when you are staring down the barrel of a gun?

The truth is, people ARE going to bring equalizers, in any form, and despite what you may believe about your martial arts skills, these equalizers will work and they are completely unexpected. You have to accept and understand that your MA training is not going to cover everything and even knife defense trained to a high degree won't prepare you for a real encounter, it'll just increase your chances.

It's not "not needing training" and it's not "going psycho". Not at all. It's survival. You don't survive by being stupid saying you don't need training and losing your mind.