Throws that can end a fight

Brian R. VanCise

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Do not throw someone on their head period. It is to dangerous even on a crash pad. The best
we can do in training this is to replicate it with a throwing dummy at this point.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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What has any of that to do with my comments?
You have introduced the concept of "different level of violence". Under the multiple opponents situation, your life is in danger. How do you know how much violence that you should commit?

I can understand "fight" or "not fight". What I don't understand is "the different degree of violence fight". The reason is simple. I don't know my opponent's intention. What if I just want "50% violence", but my opponents wants "100% violence"?
 

Martial D

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There are many different throws exist in MA. Not every throw can be used to end a fight. How to throw your opponent so his head will hit on the ground is the key.

Why there are no MA discussion in this area? Your thought?

inner_leg_block.jpg


wrestling_embrace.jpg



Any throw onto a hard surface can cause sufficient pain or injury to end a fight. These ones look more likely to end a life.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Have you thrown a grappling dummy? They don't move or react at all like a person.
That was myself in that throwing dummy video. You are right. The dummy is stiff. It's difficult to use it for hip throw. But it can be used for embracing throw, firemen's carry throw nicely. It's just some weight with human form that you lift it up and then smash back down to the ground.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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The circumstances are everything. If this is my Uncle Bob, who got drunk at the wedding and is swinging his fists at me, I may need to get him to the ground, but I would like not to break his neck. Not every violent situation calls for bashing their head into concrete.

Aside from that, most throws will do most people in, without having to target their head. Their are plenty of videos on youtube showing this.
In your drunk uncle example, it's not a fight and no violence should be involved. You can

- use hip throw to lift him off the ground,
- throw him over your back,
- hold him in your arms (like holding a baby), and
- put him on bed.

In the whole process, his body does not even have to touch the ground.

IMO, there are 2 kind of throws, throws that you try to

- protect your training partner (sport).
- hurt your enemy (combat).

Both training will be needed.

When you train the "embracing throw" (next clip), after you have picked up your opponent, for

- sport, you will put him down gently.
- combat, you will make sure his head is down and body is up, you then smash him to the ground as hard as you can (the smashing force is not shown in this clip).

 
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Gerry Seymour

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You have introduced the concept of "different level of violence". Under the multiple opponents situation, your life is in danger. How do you know how much violence that you should commit?

I can understand "fight" or "not fight". What I don't understand is "the different degree of violence fight". The reason is simple. I don't know my opponent's intention. What if I just want "50% violence", but my opponents wants "100% violence"?
We are always going to have to make a choice of violence level if we have to use our skills "on the street". It's a reality that we can apply many of our skills along a pretty broad continuum of violence levels. We can choose to apply them at their most violent, their least violent, or somewhere in between. I'm unlikely to throw someone with maximum force and targeting the head, unless I feel my life is threatened. If you choose to apply maximum violence in lesser circumstances, that is your option.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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We are always going to have to make a choice of violence level if we have to use our skills "on the street". It's a reality that we can apply many of our skills along a pretty broad continuum of violence levels. We can choose to apply them at their most violent, their least violent, or somewhere in between. I'm unlikely to throw someone with maximum force and targeting the head, unless I feel my life is threatened. If you choose to apply maximum violence in lesser circumstances, that is your option.
We are talking about the same thing with different terms. By using my term, violence is violence. There is no 50% violence and 100% violence.

lesser circumstances -> you have no reason to commit 100% violence -> you have no reason to fight -> you should avoid that fight as much as possible.

lift threaten situation -> you have reason to commit 100% violence -> you have reason to fight -> you should finish it.

You may use "50% violence". But I believe that "A lion should fight against a rabbit as fighting against another lion with full force."

IMO, 1/2 force fighting is very dangerous.
 

Gerry Seymour

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We are talking about the same thing with different terms. By using my term, violence is violence. There is no 50% violence and 100% violence.

lesser circumstances -> you have no reason to commit 100% violence -> you have no reason to fight -> you should avoid that fight as much as possible.

lift threaten situation -> you have reason to commit 100% violence -> you have reason to fight -> you should finish it.

You may use "50% violence". But I believe that "A lion should fight against a rabbit as fighting against another lion with full force."

IMO, 1/2 force fighting is very dangerous.
It's not 1/2-force fighting. When I throw, I have a range of options of how I use that throw. Even if I feel I need maximum violence, there are times I may not want to put maximum effort or muscle into a throw (maintain balance, existing injury, second attacker, whatever). It might even be that I select a use of the throw that softens the throw to open up other options at the end (drop a knee on them) to result in more total violence.

The level of violence needed in a situation is, well, situational. It'd be nice if I could say every attack gets maximum response, but consider that neither ethical nor legally safe (and that's a realistic part of self-defense).

Since I have to select the levels in training, anyway, it's a part of the setup and throw to choose how I'll use that throw.
 

JowGaWolf

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That last one looks like a Judo throw (drop seoi nage, IIRC). A few in the middle were halfway between slams and hip throws. A nice compilation.
The last one is. Judo is popular in some parts of Africa.



What I like most is the perspective that they have for it. It's the same passion that some inner city kids have about sports (football, basketball).
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Not sure. probably because there is less confusion about throws. You always know when you get a throw correct.
If you

- complete your throw, your opponent's body can have a full body rotation and use break fall to land safely.
- throw your opponent 1/2 way, your opponent's head will land first and no break fall can help him.

Why does 1/2 throw not discussed by people who train the throwing art?
 

JowGaWolf

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If you

- complete your throw, your opponent's body can have a full body rotation and use break fall to land safely.
- throw your opponent 1/2 way, your opponent's head will land first and no break fall can help him.

Why does 1/2 throw not discussed by people who train the throwing art?
How do you do half a throw? I would think that would be dangerous. Depending on the type of throw you are doing, half-way is well beyond the point of being able to stop the throw.
 

kunetao

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Well first off the throw is NOT a finishing move. Throws are to meant to disorientate your enemy and gain advantage. They should never be trained as the finishing move. Granted there are throws where they MAY land on their head/neck but even then, if its that kind of fight (fight for your life) then you should not stop there and if its just a bar brawl you should not be throwing anyone on their head unless you like jail time. Throws should either be trained where you are following up with strikes or gaining control of limbs for submission moves.......
 

drop bear

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You have introduced the concept of "different level of violence". Under the multiple opponents situation, your life is in danger. How do you know how much violence that you should commit?

I can understand "fight" or "not fight". What I don't understand is "the different degree of violence fight". The reason is simple. I don't know my opponent's intention. What if I just want "50% violence", but my opponents wants "100% violence"?

To a certain degree the tools are the same.

Say he wants to break your arm in an arm bar. It doesn't change the set up to how he gets that arm bar or how you defend it.

I don't defend a throw designed to land me on my head in some specific way. I just defend the throw
 

drop bear

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If you

- complete your throw, your opponent's body can have a full body rotation and use break fall to land safely.
- throw your opponent 1/2 way, your opponent's head will land first and no break fall can help him.

Why does 1/2 throw not discussed by people who train the throwing art?

For the most part because it is harder to get right.

So you have this theoretical tool that may kill a guy. But a practical tool that won't.

For me. No 1. I want that throw to work.

Mma does this. Where we used to see these huge over the head double legs. They look awesome but they are hard to do and cost energy.

So now people just run them down. You don't get the slam. But you are more likely to get the guy on his back.
 

marques

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There are many different throws exist in MA. Not every throw can be used to end a fight. How to throw your opponent so his head will hit on the ground is the key.

Why there are no MA discussion in this area? Your thought?

inner_leg_block.jpg


wrestling_embrace.jpg



Too much training required (or not) and little application, either in sport, war or self defence. In war you can kill, but you have other better means...
 

frank raud

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Well first off the throw is NOT a finishing move. Throws are to meant to disorientate your enemy and gain advantage. They should never be trained as the finishing move. Granted there are throws where they MAY land on their head/neck but even then, if its that kind of fight (fight for your life) then you should not stop there and if its just a bar brawl you should not be throwing anyone on their head unless you like jail time. Throws should either be trained where you are following up with strikes or gaining control of limbs for submission moves.......

Judo's concept of IPPON disagrees with you on throws not being a finishing move. Volunteer to let a judoka throw you with a makikomi throw and see how you feel about continuing. If you are using a throw in a bar brawl, going for submission is contradictory
 

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