Three phases of movement

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
I don't think I am good enough to be that smooth in a real fight against a determined, strong, or skillful opponent.

Neither am I, but I think it's worth trying to get there.

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
For instance there is nothing ideal about five swords. you are on the inside dealing with one hand of an opponent with two hands...

I don't look at five swords the same way you do... I look at my action as controlling and dominating my opponent, period.

Not only do I employ a left block to my opponent's forarm while I simultaneously deliver a right hammerfist strike to his bicep, but I implement a knee check to my opponent's right knee to control his rotation as well. To me Five Swords is not about using two hands to control one hand. To me Five Swords is about using my whole body nullify and disable my opponent's ability to retaliate.

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by MisterMike
I learned Five Swords with both hands blocking on the inside of the right round-house punch. Of course beingon the inside is a baaad thing because you KNOW that the left will be coming.

To cancel the left, the right hand slices past the neck and the left goes straight into their face. Left hand effectively cancelled. (Ideally)

I have found that the key to pulling this technique off and keeping it in the ideal phase is not to pause between strikes, but flow from one move immeadiately to the next. Your point on how to keep your opponent's left hand in check is a good one, that coupled with the knee check makes it damn near impossible for your attacker to counter this technique.

Good thread guys!

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by dcence

Oh, come on. You are too and we all know it. Oh, no -- you are right. Clyde is Superman. I forgot.

Nope. Wrong again. Clyde is Captain Caveman! :lol:

Derek,

You keep shooting people down on the fact that they aren't going to be able to react in time because they don't really know what their opponent's next move is going to be. I thought we weren't just training moves but also trying to improve upon our ability to read and counter an impending attack.

Unless you're psychic you'll never know what your attacker's first move is going to be... Why take up Kenpo in the first place then??? I mean if we're never going to develop enough perceptual speed and skill to see something coming we might as well sign up at "The Oracles School of Spoon Bending" and dump Kenpo all together. :shrug:

 

[pete]

interesting reading the description of five swords as, again, their are variations throughout the kenpo world. we don not employ the left block/right hammerfist combination, but simply a right inward block.

i would think that could create a situation where you have both hands committed to the same direction and result in an unchecked opening or where a savvy opponent disturb your balance or tie up your hands. in the version taught at my school, the left hand checks center on the right inblock and pulls back to check the right arm on the chop. always keeping your hands moving in opposite directions.

i'm sure there is a rationale for the version you were taught, since i have seen it done that way by several others as well.

i am interested in hearing more...

pete.

 

[pete]

amidst all the posturing and grandstanding, of who's right and who's wrong on this and other threads that faded into oblivion a dog's life ago... NOBODY is saying WHY they would use BOTH of their arms to block a single right roundhouse, rather than abide by KENPO principles by keeping their hands apart and keeping a check on center!

 

[pete]

hey robert, thanks for the direct and thorough response to my post on 5 swords. i get a little frustrated by all the windy internet posturing over who's teacher is better than who's, and all the my way or the highway attitudes blowing around the 'net, without explaining WHY. its like being thrown into an old monty python bit where i paid for an argument but received only contradiction! thanks for taking the time to provide a meaningful response.

with one hand or two, there need not be an "and" to deliver the handsword, in fact with one hand you have more of a circular, or better, and elliptical orbit.

we use an left three finger eye gouge, rather than the heel palm you describe, which is also fed from the orbit.

use both hands: yes, but a center check is useful, and can prevent that ball kick to the gut.

now, if he's gonna come around with the left, the handsword should check his width. but if you are late, then the handsword can be used as a block, and possibly morph into sword of destruction.

i can see your point as a teaching device to maintain consistency with delayed sword, but in delayed sword you are stepping back creating distance to nullify the attackers left. anyway, we teach 5 swords in an extended version at brown-1.

i still don't see any advantage of using both arms to defend the same punch, still see the disadvantages... can you see how the attacker can collapse his right arm, trap both your arms, and capitalize on your committed momentum to knock you off balance and attack your exposed right side?

 

[pete]

Someone mentioned just doing the right inward block, I assume that block goes below the elbow though. This would only work if you are stepping back, but not for stepping forward.

derek,

if i'm the someone you reference in your post, you've assumed incorrectly... my right steps in to check or disturb the attacker's right knee, while the right inward block goes for the bicep above the elbow, left checks center on the block and orbits back to check the attackers right as my right chop is delivered.

i did apply this during sparring the other night and what was revealed to me was each time my opponent attempted to throw the left, it was interrupted with an outward parry against my on-coming right handsword. i had to use my left to check the inside position of my opponent's left, and find a body shot open with my right. this actually happened 3 times.

i just don't see why the technique would be taught with both arms and your entire bodily momentum going in one direction, creating a structural imbalance and a the potential for getting both arms locked up.

pete.

 

[pete]

Someone mentioned just doing the right inward block, I assume that block goes below the elbow though. This would only work if you are stepping back, but not for stepping forward.

derek,

if i'm the someone you reference in your post, you've assumed incorrectly... my right steps in to check or disturb the attacker's right knee, while the right inward block goes for the bicep above the elbow, left checks center on the block and orbits back to check the attackers right as my right chop is delivered.

i did apply this during sparring the other night and what was revealed to me was each time my opponent attempted to throw the left, it was interrupted with an outward parry against my on-coming right handsword. i had to use my left to check the inside position of my opponent's left, and find a body shot open with my right. this actually happened 3 times.

i just don't see why the technique would be taught with both arms and your entire bodily momentum going in one direction, creating a structural imbalance and a the potential for getting both arms locked up.

pete.

 

[MisterMike]

When dealing with what-if's as they happen, I usually try to adjust and resume with the original technique. Otherwise you have to do a change-up and go to a new technique.

I find it interesting that once you have grouped your techniques and understand the intersections of them, you can find your way in and out from one to another rather easily. --OK, easier said than done.

I guess I haven't matched up my ideas to Clyde's terms, but one I have heard is Position Recognition. Once you have a feel for the techniques, you should never get "stuck" if it doesn't go ideally. But I think even that is probably over-analytical, as you won't have time to "think" in a real situation.

Someone once said, "Look for nothing and accept everything."

So going into a situation, you can't be saying "Boy I really want to run Five Swords on this guy." It may be what you end up running, and one way I trained was to be able to run your favorite technique for any given attack. But that is no help for instance if you become injured, and lose some ability with your right arm. Now Five Swords isn't going to help you.

 

[MisterMike]

I learned Five Swords with both hands blocking on the inside of the right round-house punch. Of course beingon the inside is a baaad thing because you KNOW that the left will be coming.

To cancel the left, the right hand slices past the neck and the left goes straight into their face. Left hand effectively cancelled. (Ideally)

 

[MisterMike]

WELL, I'm glad I stopped where I did

I figured there would be enough debate over the entry to the technique, but now you've said a mouthfull :asian:

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
First off and speaking as a critic--it's a long way from what Clyde wrote to, "it's my way, or you're wrong."

Second off, as a theoretican--there are wrong ways to do things, MJS. If memory serves, you've spent a good deal of time on MartialTalk telling me and others that we're training wrong, that we're trapped in useless tradition, that kenpo is wrong not to have more-explicit grappling, yes? Are you now recanting, and arguing that all that was just a different way to see things, no better or worse than any other way?

And apropos of 5 Swords--uh...um...you might want to spend some time with that technique. In its ideal phase. Why the blocks/the knee check? because the opponent is attenting to hit you in the heads with a right roundhouse punch, and so you want to check their body as well as block that punch.

You are omitting the purpose of the particular strikes, which is to forestall action as much as it is to strike.

Why the right hand-sword? Because (again, I am speaking of the ideal phase here) the opponent is attempting to swing with their free left hand, so you need immediately to check their width and therefore that punch. Why the following right heel-palm? To reinforce that line, and to add a stronger depth check. Why the upper-cut in the ideal version? Because after the heel-palm, the opponent is trying to drop beneath your hands. Why the step off and hand-sword? To get off their center line, to open up their center line, to check their depth. Why the right hand-sword to the back of their neck? Because they attempted to stand up; you check their height.

Why the useless extension? because the base tech didn't get it donh, and they keep fighting. The left heel-palm stands them up (height and width and depth check); the right hand drops under to check, then goes to the throat; the side-kick stops the further attacks, and starts your escape.

In other words, MisterMike's last post is quite correct. Shoulda typed faster, or been less long-winded.

I'm sure there will be instances where you can stop or delay that left. I think it depends on timing. If you get in there before that roundhouse is really out of the gate, and then flow into the rest of the technique, that left hasn't got a chance. I also run it with the knee-check as well.

If you're late, that right handsword to the neck becomes a block for the left, as you STILL execute the heel-palm to the face. The techniques were built for the what-if's, long before the extension gets there.

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by MJS
Ok. I gotta disagree with that one. If that was the case, then the tech. would work perfectly every time, regardless of what the attacker did. There is no way to predict how anybody will respond to the tech. All we can do is assume what they will do.

Mike

What I meant is the techniques are NOT necessarily going to work for every case. There are many points in the technique that you can find a what-if and then either make adjustments, or do a changeup into another technique.

The extensions do not come in where the one and only what-if exists(at the end usually).

I know we're not going to win every situation, but the answers in Kenpo are there.