Deflecting Hammer

[Rob_Broad]

(front - right front thrust kick)

1)Standing naturally, step back with your left foot toward 7:30 into a right neutral bow stance (to move out of your opponent's line of attack), as you simultaneously execute a right outside downward diagonal block against the outsode of your opponent's right kicking leg. Be sure to have your left check at your solar plexus during your block. (Your opponent's body should turn slightly to his left when your block is properly executed. Your block should additionally, turn your opponent's width, and cause injury to his leg.)

2)Without hesitation, and while still in your right neutral bow, shuffle forward as your left hand checks inward toward and between your opponent's right shoulder and bicep. Your right hand continues to circle, and will re-orbit into an inward elbow strike. (Make sure your left hand checks your opponent's forward momentum as well as the width of his upper body.)

3)Just as you conclude your shuffle execute a right inward horizontal elbow strike to your opponent's face. This is done simultaneously with a left sliding check down and onto your opponent's right elbow. (The effects of both actions should cause your opponent's head to snap back and possibly have your opponent drop to the ground.)

 

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

So the attacker is aiming this kick to the groin, solar plex area. What do you do if they try to kick you in the knee, thigh or shin?
I am not try to convert or say my way is better. But in Okinawa Kempo the attacker can kick from ankle level to head level and the knee block or jam will work. He can also attack with either leg and the block will still work without changing stances. I have seen Muay Thai guys that would rip your arm off if you tried that on them.
Bob :asian:

The great thing about this technique is by moving off line from the attack you are negating his attack. The next question will proabably be what if they throw a different kick, we have different techniques for such.

American Kenpo is a 3 stage system(for most practioners, for practioners like Doc it goes beyond that), the written technique is for the ideal phase. Kempojujutsu is already asking for the second phase the "what ifs". The ideal phase teaches us some good principles of self defense and motion, the what if phase allows us to explore and experiment with those principles. The last phase, is the ultimate goal, and that is spontaneous reaction, there you would flow from applicable part of a defense to another. Another thing to keep in mind is you would never use am actual self defense technique in a real situation you would use parts from various techniques to do what is neccessary to defend yourself.

 

[Rob_Broad]

Anyone else have a clip of this technique? It would be interesting to see the differences and similarities of the various versions.

 

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by kenpo3631



Moving off line? To where?

If I am understanding you correctly, are you stepping off on an angle as you block? Which brings me to another point, this technique is not done with the outside downward block, it's not a block- but a closed hand parry.

I'll explain myself more later, but are you describing stepping to an angle Rob?

Stepping offline of the attack is the same as stepping to away to angle. Just a different way of saying the same thing.

 

[WilliamTLear]

From what I've been taught... You're supposed to step off of the line of attack by stepping toward 7:30. The best way to avoid being hit... is not to be there.

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo



Unless you are striking perpendicular to your opponents path of action, you will have some component of their force moving in your direction. For instance most of the replies have said to step to 7:30 because it will take you off the line of attack (at least for a front kick).

Quick mechanics lesson: Use the standard clock as a reference. You are standing in the center of the clock. Your attacker throws a kick that will travel from the 12:00 mark to the 6:00 mark. For arguments sake, you step to 7:30. By doing so you've changed your angle by 45 degrees (every 30 minutes=15 degrees). Let's work with some numbers to make this a little easier to understand. Let's say that your opponent kicks at you with a force of 100 (we'll stay unitless for simplicity). This means that you will only encounter the amount of force directed 45 degrees off of his line of attack or 100 cosine (45), which equals about 70. So that means that your 100 will meet his 70 at the point of impact making an impact of 170. If 200 was the maximum amount you could collide with or 100% of the possible collision then 170 is equal to 85% of the maximum possible force achieved from the collision.

This means that even if you were to deviate to 7:30 and maintain your 7:30 to 1:30 line of attack, you would still hit with 85% of the total possible force. However, if you were to adopt a slightly different path of attack, for instance 1:00, you would increase your percentage from 85% to 93.3 %. Couple this with the fact that you've decreased your attackers ability to smack ya', and you've got a pretty sweet trade-off. A lot of safety for a little bit of power. Pretty good deal if you ask me.

This also doesn't take into account the fact that you driving a weapon through a curvilinear path of action (i.e. you will use your hips to create torque for the elbow strike), creating even more force. Or even the fact that the attacker is so over-committed with their kick that your block causes them to fall into you with the back of their head (I've seen, and had this happen to and for me).

Hopefully this makes sense. I really do love this technique, it's simple yet effective.

The curvilinear path of action used by the elbow is very important to note here because of the angle of entry it utilizes at it's point of impact. In other words... If I were throwing a linear punch after deflecting the kick I would want to be comming from 6:00, but since I am using a curvilinear path of action with the elbow... the force of the elbow strike is maximized from 7:30. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

with ALL bias....

I have seen my instructor, Huk, Mr. Trejo, Mr. T. Kelly, Sean Kelley and numerous others all step back to 6 o'clock. I feel that emulating there movements (after asking why of course) can't be wrong.:asian:

Who said that they were wrong?

I can offer you this though... Each of the gentlemen you mentioned have different ways of doing other techniques. How do you solve that problem? Elect an instructor of the month and do it that way? (joking)

I guess I must agree to disagree... Although I think that the discussion was a good one. It made me think and ask several people questions about how and why?

Take Care,
Billy Lear :asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by Rainman

You took on a bigger force or your fist was not tight.

Was an open palm vs side kick if I remember right...

Originally posted by Rainman
The attack is not a round kick. To lift your leg and try to absorb a front thrusting ball kick would leave you on the ground and if your shins were not conditioned unable to get back up. (don't forget steel toed boots) The deflection from redirection and strike causes the opponent to rotate counterclock wise thus opening the angle of entry for the ensuing elbow. Thus the name deflecting hammer- but not trying to match forces with the kick- more like hitting and damaging as it goes by and altering his line of attack and opening up your own. [/B]

I see it now. Thank you. :asian:

Is there a source for a video clip of this technique?:asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

ok...thinking about this a little more.... I can see the knee shot not allowing you to position correctly...

The down block (which I believe arcs down) will push your opponent to -your- right, where as the knee will stop their forward motion. It seems like a minor difference, but its not.

Hmm.......maybe a left roundhouse kick...then again, that would seem to destabilize your base....

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Having done both down-blocks and leg blocks I have to ask, which is more effective? I've jammed a few fingers from off blocks.

Now, the question here is, if you replace the down-block with say a knee block, how would that effect this technique? I can see the knee doing more damage, but would it put you in a poorer position for the follow ups?

:asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I got a video of this technique tonite courtesy of one of my friends who is a local Kenpo instructor. I'm in the process of doing a quick and dirty edit to it and will post it shortly tonite.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

ok, heres the clip... My thanks to Sensei Bob Koch at Robert Kochs International Black Belt Academy for his help in making this..and to Colin the wonder Uki for being the 'attacker'.

Its a quick and dirty edit, and I didn't get a clean export to my system so its a tad fuzzy in spots.

Did the technique from 2 angles and slowed both down to 30% speed..also last segment is a more complete version with extensions. Was asked to mention the family groupings that relate to this.

Enjoy.

Deflecting Hammer Clip (5MB MPEG)

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The qualitys pretty cruddy on this clip...I had some PC problems... I'm going to try to re-export it next week and see if I cant get a clearer version up. It was a spur of the moment thing when I was at the school. Bob Kochs a cool guy...my GF's a student of his and is testing for black I think next month.

One of the things I see in Kenpo is the variations on each technique. Tweak this, swap out this for that and you have another tech, etc.

I'm hoping to get some more clips of the other techniques we're discussing and put em all up.

:asian:

 

[Roland]

...you do not need to block!

 

[Roland]

.. 'Deflecting' Hammer, right?
I have never heard the term Closed Hand parry before, but it does makes lots o' sense! I like it!

 

[Roland]

That is pretty much how I was thinking, why add steps when you don't need em eh?
If you did off angle, the elbow would be prety much useless then I guess. Time to go in for a kick and then.......................(insert whatever technique you like best here)

 

[Roland]

Captured Twigs is left foot, but sideways, because he is behind you, you can't go through him, right!
Grasp of Death is forward, becase he is pulling you ( so to speak)

I think Deflecting Hammer does work better going to 6, but it also fits in with KISS. Teaching the Yellow belts the same move, repeatiton, someone attacks, get out of the way! use same foot, no matter what, cause it is easier to remember as a beginer.

Personally, I like thrusting Salute and others better, because of the off angles, but I see why this one is the way it is.
Tired right now, so heres hoping someone can explain better!



Hey Mace, no problems with disagreeing man, it is all good right?

 

[Blindside]

It works fine against the thigh kick, but it won't work against the knee or shin kick.

Even a MT teep (thrusting front kick) won't rip you arm off. And no, I wouldn't stick my arm in front of a MT round kick if I could stop or avoid it in any other manner.

I think you are reading too much into a single kick defense. It is sort of like saying the knee block doesn't work against a MT roundhouse to the head. Well of course it doesn't work, it wasn't designed to work against it.

Lamont

 

[Mace]

Big surprise there, right. When you step to 7:30, your downward block will ride the kick past your thigh, basically keeping your opponent on the 12-6 or 11:30-5:30 line. As soon as your left foot hits fire a left palm heel to the shoulder that grabs and pull for the right elbow. The push drag is if you need it, but with a commited attacker I usually don't.
On a side note, I really don't think that you should be teaching a yellow belt to step straight back with an incoming front kick. Liability and cracked ribs and all. Just offangle and deflect.
Respectfully,
Mace

 

[Mace]

You are definitely right, its all good. That's what makes these forums fun, there's discussion. Would be kind of boring if we all did it the exact same way.

My only problem with stepping to 6 is that you are not teaching a beginner to get out of the range of the attack. Stepping straight back is fine with a shorter weapon, but with such a long range weapon I like the offangle in case the block isn't effective.
Mace