Three concepts on the utilization of forces

wckf92

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WC contains this "elastic" energy stuff you guys are talking about...its contained in the forms. Whether one is taught it, or has it explained, or trains it / utilizes it is all up for debate but it is there.
 

JowGaWolf

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It's meant to simulate the direction of energy received, but I don't think it does. More importantly (as I think you are saying) it doesn't reflect the type of energy that would be received (hard vs. soft).
Yes that's what I'm saying.
 

JowGaWolf

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WC contains this "elastic" energy stuff you guys are talking about...its contained in the forms. Whether one is taught it, or has it explained, or trains it / utilizes it is all up for debate but it is there.
I'm not a wing chun guy which is why this stuff is foreign to me.
 
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Yeung

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I keep reading this and I have no idea what you mean. There's a lot of stuff in the arm that's elastic.
Tan Shou 攤手 means open hand, and is often used to describe the springiness of Wing Chun; it is like a piece of wood floating in water, and came back up when it is pushed under. So simple stretching out the arm with the elbow pointing downward and palm turned upward, and maintaining that stretching even when it reached its limit; when being push downward without resisting it then the tension of the arm will increase and return to the starting position when it is released. This is just activating the elastic component of the arm and it should work with anyone.
 
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Yeung

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IMO, elastic is as simple as the end of your current move is the beginning of your next move.

For example, the end of your

- punch is the beginning of your pulling.
- roundhouse kick is the beginning of your side kick.

I'm very lucky to have an experience on this. The 1st day that I met my teacher's brother in Beijing back in 1980, he punched at my chest and then pull his punch back. His punch created a vacuum that pull my shirt away from my body. That was the only time that I have experienced with someone's punch like that. I tried to create that myself but I still can't do it.

It makes me to believe that our generation is worse than our previous generation.

Maximize the recoil effect of a strike is by maximizing the length of relevant muscle fibres.
 
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Yeung

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WC contains this "elastic" energy stuff you guys are talking about...its contained in the forms. Whether one is taught it, or has it explained, or trains it / utilizes it is all up for debate but it is there.

You can learn the forms in a very short time, and it is the practice that makes it workable. The traditional method is just practice sticking hands until one can put up a good defense against the instructor and his assistants. Maybe people do not understand why Wing Chun work so well for some people by looking at the forms and a few simple duels.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Tan Shou 攤手 ... the tension of the arm will increase and return to the starting position when it is released.
I don't use the WC Tan Shou to block my opponent's punch. I use double Tan Shou to drill a hole between my opponent's boxing guard. After that, I don't pull my Tan Shou back. I change

- one Tan Shou to arm wrap (NW -> NE), and
- another Tan Shou to head lock (NE -> SW).

In other words, my Tan Shou will never come back the same way.

This is why I don't feel the need for that elastic motion that you are talking about here. Even if I use Tan Shou to block my opponent's punch, After my Tan Shou extension, I don't want it to return back to the starting position. When I move my hand out, I don't want my hand to come back for nothing.

IMO, in striking art, Tan Shou should always be followed by arm wrapping.
 
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Yeung

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Thank you, that was a really good example of preempted sequenced routine. Now, let think about the possible retaliations starting from fist contact when a punch is blocked by a Tan Shou.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Now, let think about the possible retaliations starting from fist contact when a punch is blocked by a Tan Shou.
It doesn't matter who punches first, when your right arm contacts your opponent's right arm, either you will change your arm contact into a grab, or your opponent will change his arm contact into a grab. Do you prefer you grab your opponent, or do you prefer your opponent grabs you?
 

wckf92

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...either you will change your arm contact into a grab, or your opponent will change his arm contact into a grab.

Not necessarily...
you may pak and punch
you may pull and punch
you may simply retract that arm and replace it with another punch (i.e. "chain" punching)
you may grab onto his arm and pull while kicking low
you may .......
 
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Yeung

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It doesn't matter who punches first, when your right arm contacts your opponent's right arm, either you will change your arm contact into a grab, or your opponent will change his arm contact into a grab. Do you prefer you grab your opponent, or do you prefer your opponent grabs you?
If you intercepted my right punch with a right Tan Shou from the blind side and attempt to grab; the response is subjected to the direction of your block whether it is across. straight, or diagonal. This is not taking the stances into consideration.
 

Transk53

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Four Principle of Power
A Wing Chun practitioner must learn to borrow the energy of the attack by way of deliberately yielding. The energy the Practitioner receives from the attack is redirected towards the attacker immediately adding his/her own force to it.

1. Give up your Own force

2. Make your opponent give up their force

3. Combine these forces together

4. Give them back

Wing Chun Theories

· 捨力論──捨棄拙力

· 卸力論──卸去來力

· 借力論──借用來力

咏春拳 - 维基百科,自由的百科全书

Updated on 1st December 2018 Saturday 15:29

A rough translation:
捨力論──捨棄拙力 give up the use brute force or dead force
卸力論──卸去來力 unloading or neutralizing the incoming force
借力論──借用來力 utilizing the incoming force

Seems a bit contradictory to me. Give up your own, you have already lost (keep but unleash when necessary). Combine the forces, not necessary as you have lost control of the fight already. Give them back, that is a counter attack to minimise losses. Sorry, but I don't understand this. Not a theory I understand.You can't unload or neutralise a fight, or any force with the same.
 

geezer

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Seems a bit contradictory to me. Give up your own, you have already lost (keep but unleash when necessary). Combine the forces, not necessary as you have lost control of the fight already. Give them back, that is a counter attack to minimise losses. Sorry, but I don't understand this. Not a theory I understand.You can't unload or neutralise a fight, or any force with the same.

There! You see what happens when you try to take a fortune cookie literally! :D


But as I mentioned in a previous post, I've heard these ideas presented a little bit differently by my old sifu, Leung Ting, and I think they have some merit. The way LT phrased these ideas in English was not as advice for fighting, but was intended to describe a learning progression as you trained the system and went as follows:

1. Get rid of your own force (i.e. learn to relaxe and get rid of unecessary tension).
2. Get rid of your opponent's force (i.e. deflect, evade, and "dissolve" the oncoming force of an attack, don't oppose it).
3. Borrow your opponent's force (i.e. don't just throw your attacker's energy away, but redirect it to your advantage).
4. Add back your own force (i.e. when you can accomplish the above, you can add in all your own power on top of what you have "borrowed").

According to LT, this is the training progression to evolve from unskilled and inefficient brawling to highly skilled and efficient fighting. LT maintained that the goal of training exercises like chi-sau is to enable us to gradually integrate this ability to "borrow the force" into our sparring and fighting, but I'd say that the same progression can be observed in all the fighting systems I know of. It applies to grappling for sure. :)
 
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gpseymour

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Seems a bit contradictory to me. Give up your own, you have already lost (keep but unleash when necessary). Combine the forces, not necessary as you have lost control of the fight already. Give them back, that is a counter attack to minimise losses. Sorry, but I don't understand this. Not a theory I understand.You can't unload or neutralise a fight, or any force with the same.
My reading of "give up your own" (admittedly coming from a VERY different perspective) was that it was about giving up tension, using relaxation to absorb. There's a similar principle found in the aiki-based arts.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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3. Borrow your opponent's force (i.e. don't just throw your attacker's energy away, but redirect it to your advantage).
4. Add back your own force (i.e. when you can accomplish the above, you can add in all your own power on top of what you have "borrowed").
In wrestling art, this can mean a lot of things. In striking art, this can only make sense as the following:

- Your opponent punches you.
- You block his punch.
- Pull his punching arm into you to meet your punch.

 

Transk53

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My reading of "give up your own" (admittedly coming from a VERY different perspective) was that it was about giving up tension, using relaxation to absorb. There's a similar principle found in the aiki-based arts.

Yes of course, I see what it alludes to now. I call it the coiled spring affect, take a bump, then give it back. At least I think I am on the right road here. To remember things mainly, I have to give them names until I get the terminology right.
 

Transk53

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There! You see what happens when you try to take a fortune cookie literally! :D


But as I mentioned in a previous post, I've heard these ideas presented a little bit differently by my old sifu, Leung Ting, and I think they have some merit. The way LT phrased these ideas in English was not as advice for fighting, but was intended to describe a learning progression as you trained the system and went as follows:

1. Get rid of your own force (i.e. learn to relaxe and get rid of unecessary tension).
2. Get rid of your opponent's force (i.e. deflect, evade, and "dissolve" the oncoming force of an attack, don't oppose it).
3. Borrow your opponent's force (i.e. don't just throw your attacker's energy away, but redirect it to your advantage).
4. Add back your own force (i.e. when you can accomplish the above, you can add in all your own power on top of what you have "borrowed").

According to LT, this is the training progression to evolve from unskilled and inefficient brawling to highly skilled and efficient fighting. LT maintained that the goal of training exercises like chi-sau is to enable us to gradually integrate this ability to "borrow the force" into our sparring and fighting, but I'd say that the same progression can be observed in all the fighting systems I know of. It applies to grappling for sure. :)

Yes, the more I read it now, then it makes sense. Probably been doing this in class with Sifu. We don’t get to do any sparring though until a higher grade, due to safety for our fellow class mates, and having to be very proficient in what we know. Some of us have clocked in class, but not in a reckless way of course.
 

gpseymour

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In wrestling art, this can mean a lot of things. In striking art, this can only make sense as the following:

- Your opponent punches you.
- You block his punch.
- Pull his punching arm into you to meet your punch.

I teach redirection in the block, itself, which can help set up grappling. So, a punch coming straight in, if I'm able to use a block (as opposed to just covering or letting it hit guard), I can send it down, which disrupts the attacker's structure.
 

gpseymour

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Yes of course, I see what it alludes to now. I call it the coiled spring affect, take a bump, then give it back. At least I think I am on the right road here. To remember things mainly, I have to give them names until I get the terminology right.
I take a different view on the "give it back", in that we (in the aiki arts) will allow their momentum farther in (getting ourselves out of its path) and add our own to it as we change its direction, or just add to it and send them off in the direction of their momentum.
 

Transk53

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I take a different view on the "give it back", in that we (in the aiki arts) will allow their momentum farther in (getting ourselves out of its path) and add our own to it as we change its direction, or just add to it and send them off in the direction of their momentum.

So far with what I have been taught, momentum goes forward, and keeps going. Block/parry and strike in quick succession. We don't actually use momentum in that way you have said. The trick for us not too allow it the first place. If we are in a position where the encounter needs to redressed, we go back and offer up ground to preposition and go again. Yes deflect and get them past, but would still be expected to quickly finish it by gaining more momentum tactically wise. We practice just going in mainly, but isn't at the detriment of our defence. Gan Sao for example would like delivering a sword cut to the arm. Hopefully I have explained it well enough.
 
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