This is going to anger some people with these statements!

Corporal Hicks

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Fundamentally all styles claim their methods as being able to cope with 'all' type of attacks. "I guess he who claims his style is really different must assume his stance on his head and when he strikes, he must turn and spin three times before doing so.

"You see, a chosen method, however exacting, fixes its practitioners in an enclosed pattern. I always say that actual combat is never fixed, has no boundaires or limits and is constantly changing from moment to moment. All of a sudden the opponent is 'alive' and no longer a cooperative robot. In other words, once 'conditioned' in the partialized style, its practitioner faces his opponent through a screen of resistance.. In reality he is merely 'performing' his stylized blocks and listening to his own screams"

As Bruce has stated above he also states that "Of all athletes in the world, only in the martial arts do they become so fat and in poor condition, and you know what? They are usually the instructors" and they can get away with it as well.

"That sort of Oriental self-defence is like swimming on land. You can learn all the swimming strokes, but if you're never in the water it's meaningless" Cos your really out of it when the ***** hits the fan.

"To me 99% of the whole business of Oriental self-defence is baloney" "ITS FANCY JAZZ"

A human being doesn't just stand there and wait to be hit. So many karate students are wrapped up in the snorting sounds and the countermoves that they lose sight of what they should be doing to an opponent. The karate teacher says, 'If your opponent does this, then you do this and if he does this then you do this'. And while you are remembering the 'and-thens' the other guy is killing you

Those were extracts from Bruce Lee's book written by his wife Linda Lee
I know that many of you will say "Well, its only from one man and his opinion and just so it happens to come from Bruce Lee" but I just want to say that I am digusted that I have been learning TKD for almost three years and I thought I could handle myself but after my own doubts and the reality of it, I have to agree with this. I'm not saying he is right I'm just saying that I believe what he is saying is mostly true and that people are being mislead into thinking that some traditional Martial Arts can provide you with sufficient self defence such as karate and Tkd.

Regards
Nick

WARNING THESE ARE MY OPINIONS
 

loki09789

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Bruce Lee never actually studied Karates directly. Many of his generalized observations were as an outsider and he already had this theoretical stance when he was observing. He never really states it, but he did have some exposure to Kenpo, which was obviously influencial if you look at his writings through that 'lens' and can find the similarities.

Different people learn 'best' with different approaches. Some learn best when you paint the broad stroke 'concepts' out and then let them work out the details over time...but it still takes time. Some will learn best if you focus on each little step/process until they get to the end of the task/skill and then can look back to reflect on how it all fits together...but that takes time as well.

This may upset some people too:

Bruce Lee was a timely and bold figure in AMERICAN martial arts. He was a huge action film influence over the world as well. His influence on Asian Martial arts practice isn't as significant as it is here in the West.

Bruce was also a pretty impatient, brilliant, intelligent, obsessive personallity (stories of predisposition to addiction, getting zinc/iron poisoning because he at too much sushi at one time because he loved it, as well as the 'girlfriends') all would indicate that he didn't like structure/order/authority - not to mention his 'street fight' history.

Was he right? In some cases, but not all. Ultimately, you have to understand for yourself what you want to do/are training for with martial arts and if you are getting it from your current practice. If TKD isn't doing it for you, it isn't "TKD" that is "bad" because you will take the hard work and technical skill with you where ever you go.

It is the disconnect between intent and practice that needs to be fixed.
 

MichiganTKD

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I pay about as much attention to Bruce Lee as I do to Jackie Chan, Jet Li, and Chuck Norris. None. I watch their movies, admire their technique (for the most part), then turn the tv off and do something constructive.
 

Rob Broad

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It is the art that givs you the tools, and admittedly some arts offer a bigger tools box and more tools than others, but it is that man that has to use the tools and built what he can.
 
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markulous

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I agree with you Hicks. Most of what is taught today is not effective for combat.
Example: While a horse stance or a long fist stance will make your legs stronger to use them in a fight would not work at all. Most of the blocks that are taught are not as effective as simply moving out of the way a few inches.

Bruce had actual philosophy unlike Jackie Chan or Jet Li. Not to mention he created his OWN system of martial arts! Not to say that what Bruce Lee says is law but he knows his stuff. He has tested what he has done in the street not in a tournament that is basically two grown men playing tag.
 

Ceicei

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There is a whole range of things that can be done with hands/feet/elbows/knees not limited to only what is learned within one style. True, a martial art may not have "everything", but if a martial artist in a self defense situation is able to think "outside the box" and reacts instinctively in survival mode (in other words, anything goes), then the chances of succeeding should be better.

- Ceicei
 

Mark Lynn

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Corporal Hicks said:
Those were extracts from Bruce Lee's book written by his wife Linda Lee
I know that many of you will say "Well, its only from one man and his opinion and just so it happens to come from Bruce Lee" but I just want to say that I am digusted that I have been learning TKD for almost three years and I thought I could handle myself but after my own doubts and the reality of it, I have to agree with this. I'm not saying he is right I'm just saying that I believe what he is saying is mostly true and that people are being mislead into thinking that some traditional Martial Arts can provide you with sufficient self defence such as karate and Tkd.

Regards
Nick

WARNING THESE ARE MY OPINIONS

Nick
I edited your post to address this last part. 21 years ago I was in a similar situation to you, I'd been involved with American TKD for about 2 1/2 years. when I went to see Dan Inosanto at a seminar on the filipino martial arts. It was eye opening to say the least and really made me question what I was learning in TKD. Because from this exposure I started getting into the whole JKD thing (no offense to JKD meant) only there wasn't any instruction near by so I continued with my TKD training and tried "absorb what was useful" from JKD and other systems.

However it was from karate/TKD that I formed a basis from which to examine what I was learning at the seminars. The more I learned or the more I advanced in TKD the better I became in understanding what I learned at the seminars. What I learned in the seminars on JKD/Thaiboxing/Aikijitsu etc. etc. I incorperated into my self defense training in TKD.

But when it came time to actually learn from an instructor in JKD Kali 10 years later, I was already able to do things pretty well. I could move out of the way of the incoming stick or knife (distancing), I could punch and kick better than the other students etc. etc. I also under stood motion.

All of this to say that you are learning valuable skills where you are at probably. It's just a matter of relooking at things. And as Paul pointed out re-examine your training.

Through the 80's whenever I would attend a JKD type seminar often times the fellow practioners had a pretty low regard for TKD/karate etc. etc. However I read the books and such and to an extant even Inosanto put down the practice of these arts as well. So in Tulsa in 1990 I went to see Guro Inosanto for another seminar and he was going to show a knife defense that had worked for someone. And low and behold the intial block/technique was a variation of a open hand upward block (in any TKD/karate system) that had been drilled into me through the books, tapes and such as being worthless.

That really opened my eyes and I started looking at the commonality between systems and techniques instead of all of the differences or what anyone says is good or bad. Later on I started applying throws, disarms etc. etc. with using the standard blocks I learned in TKD and such. There is plenty there to be effective you just have to dig it out.

If your current instructor can't help you in this area, then I suggest you either seek out other instruction in a system that meets your needs, or with an instructor who can guide you to the goal you are looking for.

No offense meant to anyone here in JKD TKD or karate, nor towards Guro Inosanto or any other instructors for that matter.

Mark
 

Mark Lynn

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Folks

I believe that any martial art practiced correctly can be beneficial to whomever is studying it.

I look at them kind of like the lines of numbers (intergers? it's been to many years since math class for me :idunno: ) in math, you know where you plot the numbers etc. etc.

Well on one end of the spectrum you have sport on the other end you have self defense. Or on one end you have the tradtional systems and the other end you have the more modern systems. You pick out an system based on several factors (cost, location, type of system, your goal as to what you want form the system) and the school will generally fall somewhere on the lines above. Now the skills you learn can help you shift your training towards one end or the other, but you need to shift it that way (for you) if your school or your instructor is to much in towards the other end of the spectrum than you want to be. WITHOUT MAKING A FUSS OR PROBLEMS IN YOUR SCHOOL.

With respect
Mark
 

cfr

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Sounds to me like you should kick rocks and go somewhere that you can train the way you beleive in.
 

Han-Mi

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Three years isn't that long. You should be able to grasp the fact that basics are best though. As I read your post, I wonder what your experience was to sour you so. Bruce Lee was very intelligent and contributed a lot, but(IMO) he wasn't trying to say that you should not learn set movements and train them before using them. As I understand it, he is saying that you learn these things to forget them. Learn everything you can, then use what works for you and train with a partner that will resist and can let you know if the techniques are working. It sounds like your training was not to the intensity that you require, or you did not train to the intensity required. I have seen amazing things done by Martial Artists, and I have beaten opponants myself that I questioned my ability against.

My most important note on this is that you didn't waste your time. Find a new instructor or put more work into your training, one of those is your problem(IMO). Don't just be soured forever, and potentially throw off others you meet from learning to defend themselves.
 
OP
Corporal Hicks

Corporal Hicks

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Don't just be soured forever, and potentially throw off others you meet from learning to defend themselves.[/QUOTE]
The whole reason that I began to question TKD was through somebody else, before that I was really into it, but I will not talk to others about my opinions apart from on these forums as to not potentially throw off others.

Thanks for the viewpoints guys.

Regards
Nick
 

Bod

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Quotes from Markulous

Most of what is taught today is not effective for combat.
Correct. Only what is learned is effective for combat.

Example: While a horse stance or a long fist stance will make your legs stronger to use them in a fight would not work at all.
Incorrect. Some stand up grappling experience and multiple opponents experience will teach you that.

Most of the blocks that are taught are not as effective as simply moving out of the way a few inches.
That really depends on what you are using the block for. If you are fighting multiple opponents moving a few inches is suicidal. If you are using large blocks as counters rather than with an offensive mindset those blocks will be less effective.

Bruce had actual philosophy unlike Jackie Chan or Jet Li.
Bruce spouted lots of philosophy without quoting his sources. Don't count out Jackie Chan or Jet Li or anyone else for that matter, until you know them personally.

Not to say that what Bruce Lee says is law but he knows his stuff. He has tested what he has done in the street not in a tournament that is basically two grown men playing tag.
We're wondering into the realms of myth here. He did test what he knew in a tournament and got beaten. Also most of his system came after fighting in the street.

One of the difficulties of 'absorbing what is useful', to paraphrase Mao Tse Tung, is that you first have to know what is useful. That involves experience and an open mind. Trying something out once in a one on one sparring situation and then throwing it out as non-useful because it didn't seem to work is a mark of impatience, not discernment.

Of course, often you will get an instructor who insists you use something in the wrong place, such as a hard rising block in a one-on-one with someone 3 feet away. You have 2 choices, use the opportunity as a way to practise the move as a highly aggresive multiple opponent technique, and ignore the fact that your sparring partner keeps outpointing you, or find another instructor. Sometimes the latter is the better option, but not always.
 

loki09789

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I don't know if 'questioning' or causing questions to arise is a bad thing. On the issues of 'confidence' or 'faith' in our training is the questioning process. For those who say that Martial arts is a self discovery/improvement process I say welcome to the real world.

Learning to work through doubt, ambiguity, unclear purpose, .... is as important a lesson, and a daily application skill I might add, as any punching/kicking techniques.

Think about it in terms of 'committed technique:' Everything just seems to work better when you commit to a technique or combination OR A SYSTEM OF TRAINING even when you don't understand it completely. Now, I am not saying throw your money into an unrewarding experience but I am saying that sticking to it until you figure out what the real issue is: Is it the system, instructor, training (what you are preparing to do with your art), you, .... then make the appropriate choices.

Since you can really only control your actions and choices, start with talking this stuff out with your instructor and friends from class. A class/school can be like a little support network and you will find others who have gone through this stuff and help you out from their experience.
 
O

OC Kid

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People seem to forget that Bruce studied a traditional art for a while before he went on to study other arts. he had the basics down. JKD means "The way of the intercepting fist" isnt that the premise in which Wing Chin is based on? So all he did was take art and build on it as we all do/should.
 
C

captnigh

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Was he right? In some cases, but not all. Ultimately, you have to understand for yourself what you want to do/are training for with martial arts and if you are getting it from your current practice. If TKD isn't doing it for you, it isn't "TKD" that is "bad" because you will take the hard work and technical skill with you where ever you go.

It is the disconnect between intent and practice that needs to be fixed.
I agree on this point. TKD (or any other martial art, for that matter) isn't the question, it's the answer - but is it the answer to YOUR question?
 

cfr

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I would say that there are no bad styles. (not even TKD) But I would say that not all styles are for all people. I will never take a style with kata. Not because of the typical anti kata mindset that we read here all the time. But because they aren't for me. I don't beleive in them. But lots of others do and I would encourage those people to do them with enthusiasm. There is a difference between not liking small parts of your training and not beleiving in it. If you truely don't believe in what you're doing then I think you should go. I don't think you need to analyze it or look for the deep seeded inner meanings. Just go. In my experience, once your head is posioned about what your doing, it can never go back. Even more, once you've read about the 'alive' concepts, if you are a true beleiver in them, everything else will leave you wondering.
 

DeLamar.J

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Corporal Hicks said:
Fundamentally all styles claim their methods as being able to cope with 'all' type of attacks. "I guess he who claims his style is really different must assume his stance on his head and when he strikes, he must turn and spin three times before doing so.

"You see, a chosen method, however exacting, fixes its practitioners in an enclosed pattern. I always say that actual combat is never fixed, has no boundaires or limits and is constantly changing from moment to moment. All of a sudden the opponent is 'alive' and no longer a cooperative robot. In other words, once 'conditioned' in the partialized style, its practitioner faces his opponent through a screen of resistance.. In reality he is merely 'performing' his stylized blocks and listening to his own screams"

As Bruce has stated above he also states that "Of all athletes in the world, only in the martial arts do they become so fat and in poor condition, and you know what? They are usually the instructors" and they can get away with it as well.

"That sort of Oriental self-defence is like swimming on land. You can learn all the swimming strokes, but if you're never in the water it's meaningless" Cos your really out of it when the ***** hits the fan.

"To me 99% of the whole business of Oriental self-defence is baloney" "ITS FANCY JAZZ"

A human being doesn't just stand there and wait to be hit. So many karate students are wrapped up in the snorting sounds and the countermoves that they lose sight of what they should be doing to an opponent. The karate teacher says, 'If your opponent does this, then you do this and if he does this then you do this'. And while you are remembering the 'and-thens' the other guy is killing you

Those were extracts from Bruce Lee's book written by his wife Linda Lee
I know that many of you will say "Well, its only from one man and his opinion and just so it happens to come from Bruce Lee" but I just want to say that I am digusted that I have been learning TKD for almost three years and I thought I could handle myself but after my own doubts and the reality of it, I have to agree with this. I'm not saying he is right I'm just saying that I believe what he is saying is mostly true and that people are being mislead into thinking that some traditional Martial Arts can provide you with sufficient self defence such as karate and Tkd.

Regards
Nick

WARNING THESE ARE MY OPINIONS
You have to learn to walk before you crawl! People like you talk down on pre arranged movements am I right? you dont seem to care for kata, am I right? First you have to learn to block a punch that is pre arranged before you can block a random one, thats why in karate we do pre arranged attacks. With starting out slow and teaching a student to block one specific technique at a time, the student gets a better understanding on how exactly to block a technique,and when its the students turn to attack, they learn exactly how to throw a punch, in exactly the right spot. Then once you have a basic idea on how to block and throw all the basic kicks and punches you are taught how to link them together properly, thats called kata, grasshopper. Once you get the basic idea of how to perform a kata, then you learn to spar, were everything comes together, there are no pre arranged movements. This slow learning process teaches the student a better idea of the science of martial arts because they just didnt throw on some gloves and beat the crap out of each other. This method of teaching also makes it more comfortable for a student who is afraid of getting hurt, it eases them into the martial arts, builds there confidence in there abillity and technique, so they can apply it in sparring and full contact sparring when they get a little more up there in rank. I hope this gives you a better idea on why we do things the way we do in karate. There is a reason for the way we do things. You talk like you think thats the way karate people fight, the only time there are pre arranged movements or patters is when your learning how to do a new technique properly so you can apply it in a fight. Higher ranking students have already been through this long, hard and sometimes boring learning process, and reap the benifits of training properly, and being able to use these techniques in a real fight. I still practice kata regularly to keep my technique honed and ready because if you dont use it you loose it. People like you see us doing kata and one steps and laugh but you have no idea why we do it, you think that because they are pre arranged movements and attacks that the unpredictabillity of a real fight will cause our methods to fail, when these exercises are only there to hone a students technique and teach them good foot work, we dont fight full contact in pre arranged movements. Have I gotten through to you? Do you understand now?
 
I

Ippon Ken

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Bod said:
Quotes from Markulous


Correct. Only what is learned is effective for combat.


Incorrect. Some stand up grappling experience and multiple opponents experience will teach you that.


That really depends on what you are using the block for. If you are fighting multiple opponents moving a few inches is suicidal. If you are using large blocks as counters rather than with an offensive mindset those blocks will be less effective.

Bruce had actual philosophy unlike Jackie Chan or Jet Li.
Bruce spouted lots of philosophy without quoting his sources. Don't count out Jackie Chan or Jet Li or anyone else for that matter, until you know them personally.


We're wondering into the realms of myth here. He did test what he knew in a tournament and got beaten. Also most of his system came after fighting in the street.

One of the difficulties of 'absorbing what is useful', to paraphrase Mao Tse Tung, is that you first have to know what is useful. That involves experience and an open mind. Trying something out once in a one on one sparring situation and then throwing it out as non-useful because it didn't seem to work is a mark of impatience, not discernment.

Of course, often you will get an instructor who insists you use something in the wrong place, such as a hard rising block in a one-on-one with someone 3 feet away. You have 2 choices, use the opportunity as a way to practise the move as a highly aggresive multiple opponent technique, and ignore the fact that your sparring partner keeps outpointing you, or find another instructor. Sometimes the latter is the better option, but not always.
Outstanding response, Bod! Props!
 
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