This is bugging me

[Xue Sheng]

This is likely just me but I have been running into this a lot lately in the real world and I have seen it a few times on MT and it I REALLY beginning to get on my nerves :disgust: could be the almost 18 years of taiji, 14 of which are Yang style talking, I don't know, but....

Would you say you know TKD if all you know is Taegeuk Il Jang?
Would you know Shotokan if all you knew was Heian Shodan?
Would you know Judo if all you knew was Nage no Kata?
Would you know Changquan if all you knew was Lian Bu Quan?
Would you know Xingyiquan if all you knew was Piquan?
Would you know Wing Chun if all you knew was half of Sil Lum Tao (or all of sil lum tao for that matter)?
And if all you have learned is Yin Style 8 Turning Palms do you know Bagua?

And would you be qualified to teach TKD, Shotokan, Judo, Changquan, Xingyiquan, Wing Chun or Bagua if that was all you knew and would you be a master or grand master of any?

Then answer me this.

:soapbox:

Why are people that only trained Yang Style 24 form or only know the Yang Long form or only know 48 form or only know Chen Style Laojia Yilu out there teaching, telling people they know taiji and/or calling themselves teacher, sifu, masters and/or grand masters?

If you have only been training taiji for 6 months to a year you are very much a beginner. If you have been training taiji for 6 years you are starting to understand and after over 50 years my sifu is absolutely adamant that he is not a master and not to be called one and if you call him Grand Master he imiedietly says “Don’t call me that” He ONLY goes by his first name or sifu in class.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I knew a Chen stylist who went to Chen villiage every year and when asked if he wanted to learn New frame he said "No, I want to focus on Old frame" He was very good.

That is the exception. Those who want to perfect there skill.

You might be able to teach assuming the person knows everything but is main focus is that one thing.

Example: I would love to learn Piquan from a guy who does nothing but that for 20 years!! Assuming everything else is well like his Santi his understanding of theory and application.

However those are the exception if there ever was any.

But No in order to teach the art you have to know the art.

And you need to have mastered basics,techniques(all of them),and know the theory of your art.

To be able to teach you need to develop experience from mastering the art.

 

[grydth]

I had a Sifu who phrased it the other way: one of the best ways to come to know an art is teaching others...

The olde saying runs that in a nation of the blind, the one eyed man is king... and that may, in good part, explain this. There may simply not be Any teachers who would satisfy Xue's exacting standards in a given region. If there is a demand for that art, somebody - either a total fraud or a relatively junior person - will step in to fill that need.... and make some real money.

We are a status driven society, love our titles and honoraria. That's behind some of the inflated claims of achievement, I am sure. Conversely, excellent practitioners sometimes leave their arts early - why stay? They've got their black belt - so, on to something else. The emphasis on THE BLACK BELT rather than on a lifetime path of learning can't be good for American martial arts.

Ultimately, the most work that many wish to do is framing a certificate.

 

[tshadowchaser]

If there is a demand for that art, somebody - either a total fraud or a relatively junior person - will step in to fill that need.... and make some real money

Here in lies much of the problem. If the art is unknown in the area than anyone with a small knowledge of the art may be looked at as a good teacher of that art.

Now as had been said before if a person studied one form/set/etc. for 20 or 30 years then yes I might consider them an expert on that one aspect of the art BUT not on the whole system. Their study of that one aspect may have reveled to them some things that others do not know, but not necessarily the essence of the whole art

 

[hpulley]

On the one hand I completely agree. A new guy came to the taiji class and said he'd been doing it for 10 years. My teacher said, "Ah, a beginner then!" My teacher goes to China yearly to try and pick up some more and after 30 years he continues to refine it. Is he a master then? A grandmaster? Certainly not and he doesn't claim to be. He is learning just like his students but he is still qualified to teach it.

A beginner can still teach things to a complete novice. You don't need to be a master or a grandmaster to teach. Anyone can teach and everyone is a student. Master or grandmaster is just a title. Anyone can bestow a title on themself or on another but only through showing what you know can you display that you know anything at all.

Not all masters are good teachers either. Some of the best at techniques are poorest teachers and vice versa. Teaching is itself a skill.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If someone has done laojia yilu and only laojia yilu for many years of focused on only Xingyiquan wuxing (5 elements) for many years and they decide to teach others what they have trained I really have no problem with that. What is bugging me are the ones that spent a whole 6 months or a year learning a taiji form whether that is the Yang Long Form or The Yang (Beijing) 24 form or even a Wu form or Chen that go out and start teaching because they have already learned taiji. They learned the form already what else do they need . And then they teach a bunch and you just know some of those go off and do the same damn thing. Or they learn any of these in one or 2 seminars from a taiji family member or a person known as a taiji sifu and voilà they are now masters trained by Chen, Yang, Fu, Wu, etc. I am not saying that you cannot go to any of their seminars and learn and with hard training and dedication become rather good. I am referring to the ones who JUST go to the seminar and then go off and teach. And of course learning 24 at the Y and then BANG you’re a Yang style teacher.

A sifu like my Yang style teacher with a background like his is not that common today and frankly there are those out there teaching that are rather good that do not have as extensive background as he has. Chen Bing has been training far less time than my Yang sifu but I would happily go train with Chen Bing but it is those that went to my sifu’s class and learned only the long form and went off and opened a taiji school or hold seminars (this has happened by the way) or those that went to 1 maybe 2 Chen Bing seminars and now have a school or teach at someone else’s school and call themselves master I have a problem with.

And would any of this be expectable or taken seriously if someone did this in TKD, JKD, Wing Chun, Karate, Judo, Jujutsu, Changquan, Sanshou, Aikido, etc.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Ohh I know those type!!

They can do the form or at least the form done awful.

I have seen someone do Yang style and there was so much tension She looked like she was doing The Robot.

To the untrained eye and if you throw in a couple of fancy words like trained with China grandmaster(even if it was only at a seminar) They are hooked.

It is frustrating to say the least. Here in Miami there are 2 Bagua schools and I have no idea what they are doing let alone the price they charge.

Some teachers use the Umbrella term Shaolin or Nothern Kungfu and you are lost as to what they are doing lol.

Another thing that is frustrating is seminar certification.

That I think is can be misleading.

Example of Yang 24 form. A very popular form that you may get in a couple of seminars and possible certification

The certification process: 1. Enroll in a workshop: Find a workshop in the program you want to teach and enroll.

2. Prepare for your workshop: You must prepare beforehand using instructional DVDs and written materials.

3. Attend a workshop: Each workshop is a two-day, face-to-face workshop with a comprehensive curriculum that includes learning: • The tai chi forms
• how to teach effectively and safely
• how to deliver the program
• how to deal with chronic conditions
• how to work with older adults, and
• the essential principles of the program.
4. Assessment: You will be assessed on your performance of the forms and a written test.

5. Follow Up: As a graduate, you are required to continue practice do an update class every two years. You will be supported with technical advice and continued training.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yup, that's what I'm talking about

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

If I ever get a Reiki cerification I will be Reiking in the dough!!

Sorry couldn't resist:lfao:

 

[thetruth]

:soapbox:

Why are people that only trained Yang Style 24 form or only know the Yang Long form or only know 48 form or only know Chen Style Laojia Yilu out there teaching, telling people they know taiji and/or calling themselves teacher, sifu, masters and/or grand masters?

If you have only been training taiji for 6 months to a year you are very much a beginner. If you have been training taiji for 6 years you are starting to understand and after over 50 years my sifu is absolutely adamant that he is not a master and not to be called one and if you call him Grand Master he imiedietly says “Don’t call me that” He ONLY goes by his first name or sifu in class.

Why???? Because they can. Unless people are willing to name and shame them(which can be a hassle due to the litigious nature of the world today) then they will keep doing it and the only thing everyone else can do is keep doing the right thing.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Xue Sheng]

Why???? Because they can. Unless people are willing to name and shame them(which can be a hassle due to the litigious nature of the world today) then they will keep doing it and the only thing everyone else can do is keep doing the right thing.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

Very true. I have said this before on MT and I just put it in another post a few minutes ago. But it is applicable to what you are saying here

My first sifu was at one time teaching only what he learned in China in college and a few things he learned before. He got greedy after being in the US for a few years and changed drastically so I left. That was about 12 years ago and today he claims mastery of many many styles. About 3 years ago I was told by a Chen family member that he had told my first sifu to stop teaching Chen and stop claiming lineage to the Chen family since he did not have it. But as the Chen family person said "What can I really do to him, this is America". I got the impression that China would have been much more costly to my first sifu either in pain or money.

By the way my first sifu is very responsible for producing these short term fake masters in both Taiji and qigong these days. I trained with him for 3 years before he said I could teach (and in retrospect that was to soon). Today he has people out teaching after 6 months. And just to add insult to injury, he knew "NO" qigong when he got here and now he gives out lifetime certifications in it for a few thousand dollars.

 

[Phoenix44]

I might say, "I know some TKD" (or judo, or whatever). Or I might say I'm training in TKD. Or I do karate. Or maybe even I practice tai chi.

Look, you can't necessarily blame the individual. How was s/he taught? And for what purpose? And for what purpose is s/he teaching?

I don't think you have to be a grandmaster to teach a Yang 24 movement form in a "Tai Chi for Health" class for the senior citizens at the local parks department who want to improve their balance, posture and bone density. And if you are one of those senior citizens, you may well say, "I know tai chi," because for your purpose, you do. And by the way, I've taken those classes, and for their purpose, they were very good. Plus, it turned me on to tai chi. (Actually, now that you mention it, the woman who taught the classes had about 20 years practice under her belt, but you get the point.)

When I wanted to learn tai chi as a martial art, I looked for a teacher with that purpose in mind, and then I expected a different type of teacher and training. And I say "I practice tai chi." Because it's pretty obvious to me that I'm going to have to practice *#%@$& forever to get that form!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I might say, "I know some TKD" (or judo, or whatever). Or I might say I'm training in TKD. Or I do karate. Or maybe even I practice tai chi.

Look, you can't necessarily blame the individual. How was s/he taught? And for what purpose? And for what purpose is s/he teaching?

I don't think you have to be a grandmaster to teach a Yang 24 movement form in a "Tai Chi for Health" class for the senior citizens at the local parks department who want to improve their balance, posture and bone density. And if you are one of those senior citizens, you may well say, "I know tai chi," because for your purpose, you do. And by the way, I've taken those classes, and for their purpose, they were very good. Plus, it turned me on to tai chi. (Actually, now that you mention it, the woman who taught the classes had about 20 years practice under her belt, but you get the point.)

When I wanted to learn tai chi as a martial art, I looked for a teacher with that purpose in mind, and then I expected a different type of teacher and training. And I say "I practice tai chi." Because it's pretty obvious to me that I'm going to have to practice *#%@$& forever to get that form!

Nothing wrong with taiji for health, nothing wrong with seniors saying I know taiji as long as after that on class they do not go off and start teaching other seniors. However spend 6 months trained 24 form and then go off and teach seniors and you are likely putting more at risk than you are helping. You do not yet understand the alignment of it you certainly do not understand the internal of it and you are likely not all that balanced in some of the forms yourself.

Take 6 months to learn Taegeuk Il Jang or Heian Shodan or Nage no Kata or Lian Bu Quan or Piquan or Sil Lum Tao or 8 turning palms and then go off and start teaching, even just for form and are you qualified, are you helping?

You see many many people think "oh taiji, this is easy" and it isn't. This attitude by the way has effectively killed off Taiji as a martial art and is doing a hell of a job killing it off for health purposes too.

 

[BrandonLucas]

If I read this right, what you're talking about is the equivelent of someone getting one of those "online" business degrees in 6 months and then opening their own shop, right?

So, if I were to train at a dojang for 1 years time, and in that span of time, the instructor ranks me very quickly to 1st dan, would I be qualified to teach?

I don't think I would be qualified to teach anyone over a whitebelt level. Teaching, in my opinion, is something that requres experience gained over time, not rank.

In earning a 1st dan in just a year, what is it that I hope to teach another student? Am I going to truly teach the art to someone else? It's doubtful. For someone to teach after quickly attaining a 1st dan or it's equivelent would mean they're in it for the quick buck.

Sure, I wanted to teach as soon as I earned my 1st dan. Did I? Not until I had actually been a 1st dan for almost 2 years...after it took me 4 years of steady practice to earn it.

It does bother me to see people who go to seminars to achieve rank start teaching what they learned in a 2 day seminar. And it's really not that they're teaching what they learned in the seminar that bothers me, it's that they advertise it like they've been dedicated to the art for a long period of time.

It kind of goes into another heading for me, something I like to call "blackbelt by osmosis". If I earned a 1st dan in TKD, and I wanted to earn a 1st dan in Shotokan, then all I have to do is go to 2 seperate 2 day seminars, and viola, I'm a 1st dan in Shotokan because my rank carries over from another style.

WRONG!!!!

A blackbelt is earned over years of dedicated training, not over 72 hours of "guided instruction". And even if, IF, you could gain the knowledge of the entire art in just 72 hours, how could that give you the experience and the insight to teach the art to others who have virtually NO experience in martial arts at all?

I think instructors who use this tactic should be investigated. In essence, it's the same as passing out loaded guns to minors without teaching them how to shoot or who to shoot at.

Sorry so longwinded. Thought of different stuff to say the more I typed.

 

[foggymorning162]

Although I definately agree with the previously stated opinions on Certs. by seminar I wanted to comment on BrandonLucas's comment about needing to be 1st Dan a couple years before teaching. If by that you mean opening your own school then I agree in fact I think you should be at least 2nd Dan, but if you mean teaching a class in an established school I have to say the number of years you've been learning don't make you a better teacher, as long as your teaching the lower ranks there shouldn't be any reason for not teaching at 1st Dan. I know people who are much higher in rank and although they know what they are doing and are good at it they are not good teachers. Some people are teachers and some aren't years of training can't make you one if your not naturally.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Although I definately agree with the previously stated opinions on Certs. by seminar I wanted to comment on BrandonLucas's comment about needing to be 1st Dan a couple years before teaching. If by that you mean opening your own school then I agree in fact I think you should be at least 2nd Dan, but if you mean teaching a class in an established school I have to say the number of years you've been learning don't make you a better teacher, as long as your teaching the lower ranks there shouldn't be any reason for not teaching at 1st Dan. I know people who are much higher in rank and although they know what they are doing and are good at it they are not good teachers. Some people are teachers and some aren't years of training can't make you one if your not naturally.

Thanks for pointing that out...

I did mean that a person should have several years experience in teaching before venturing on their own to teach. I thought I put that in my post, but I got a little excited....lol....

I personally have assisted in instructing classes, and have taught classes myself in my instructor's dojang. At the point where I was "student" teaching, I was a 1st dan, and then, shortly before I stopped attending class for a while, I achieved 2nd dan.

I also think that this is correct about some people being good teachers...for those people who are not, I don't think it really matters what rank they earn, if they aren't able to convey the material to another person, then they have failed to effectively teach.

The next thing that should be said is that people just figure that the more they list on their martial arts "resume", the better they look to the general public. And, in many ways, this is true. The average person coming off the street to learn a martial art more than likely is not going to do the proper research on the instructor in question, and will just assume that since they have plaques that state their multiple ranks in multiple arts, then they must be good.

We're all familier with this scenerio. And it's sad, especially when it's in the art that you're most familier with. I've seen quite a few TKD schools as well as other spinoff schools open under this scenerio.

In fact, I was speaking with a friend the other day, and he was taking the test to become a police officer. He was telling me that he was really excited to get into the self defense class, and started telling me about the instructor.

He was told by the instructor, we'll call him Prof. X, that he was "above blackbelt", and that he had come up with his own system. Now, the police force had actually hired this guy to teach the officers self defense tactics. My friend told me that he was not taught any of the moves, but was given a demo on how to put someone in a lock to put handcuffs on them, and the description was one that involved hands and arms and elbows twisting in weird ways.

Basically, I don't think Prof. X knows what he's doing, and it worries me, because he's teaching this "junk" to police officers, who need to be trained to protect themselves so that they can protect others. And Prof. X is, I'm sure, making quite a profit from marketing crap.

So, yeah, it definitely gets under my skin to see this kind of thing first hand.

 

[jks9199]

Thanks for pointing that out...

I did mean that a person should have several years experience in teaching before venturing on their own to teach. I thought I put that in my post, but I got a little excited....lol....

I personally have assisted in instructing classes, and have taught classes myself in my instructor's dojang. At the point where I was "student" teaching, I was a 1st dan, and then, shortly before I stopped attending class for a while, I achieved 2nd dan.

I also think that this is correct about some people being good teachers...for those people who are not, I don't think it really matters what rank they earn, if they aren't able to convey the material to another person, then they have failed to effectively teach.

The next thing that should be said is that people just figure that the more they list on their martial arts "resume", the better they look to the general public. And, in many ways, this is true. The average person coming off the street to learn a martial art more than likely is not going to do the proper research on the instructor in question, and will just assume that since they have plaques that state their multiple ranks in multiple arts, then they must be good.

We're all familier with this scenerio. And it's sad, especially when it's in the art that you're most familier with. I've seen quite a few TKD schools as well as other spinoff schools open under this scenerio.

In fact, I was speaking with a friend the other day, and he was taking the test to become a police officer. He was telling me that he was really excited to get into the self defense class, and started telling me about the instructor.

He was told by the instructor, we'll call him Prof. X, that he was "above blackbelt", and that he had come up with his own system. Now, the police force had actually hired this guy to teach the officers self defense tactics. My friend told me that he was not taught any of the moves, but was given a demo on how to put someone in a lock to put handcuffs on them, and the description was one that involved hands and arms and elbows twisting in weird ways.

Basically, I don't think Prof. X knows what he's doing, and it worries me, because he's teaching this "junk" to police officers, who need to be trained to protect themselves so that they can protect others. And Prof. X is, I'm sure, making quite a profit from marketing crap.

So, yeah, it definitely gets under my skin to see this kind of thing first hand.

If he teaches any experienced officers... they'll put the lie to any crap "Prof X" tries to teach. Quickly.

I think that if you come out with less than 10 years of training in taiji or many other primarily internal Chinese arts -- you've got no business claiming to be a "teacher." At best, you can lead people through the exercises. It might (and I stress MIGHT) be possible for someone with a solid grounding in another art (especially an internal art) to pick up the basics well enough in a year or two. But they're building on a foundation, not starting from scratch.

 

[geezer]

This is likely just me but I have been running into this a lot lately in the real world and I have seen it a few times on MT and it I REALLY beginning to get on my nerves :disgust: could be the almost 18 years of taiji, 14 of which are Yang style talking, I don't know, but....

Would you say you know TKD if all you know is Taegeuk Il Jang?
Would you know Shotokan if all you knew was Heian Shodan?
Would you know Judo if all you knew was Nage no Kata?
Would you know Changquan if all you knew was Lian Bu Quan?
Would you know Xingyiquan if all you knew was Piquan?
Would you know Wing Chun if all you knew was half of Sil Lum Tao (or all of sil lum tao for that matter)?
And if all you have learned is Yin Style 8 Turning Palms do you know Bagua?

I hear you loud and clear on this. Recently, I worked out with an experienced Kenpo/JKD/Kali stylist, at least 15 years my junior, who proceeded to mention at least half-a-dozen other systems he claimed that he "knew". This included systems such as pa-qua and hsing-i. Hell, these systems are said to take a lifetime to perfect! I asked him how a man in his mid thirties who trained as a "hobby" could know so much. In a mildly condescending tone he patiently explained that once you firmly grasp the foundations of the martial arts that you can easily assimilate new forms.

Well, boy was I ever humbled. I study two arts, Wing Tsun and Escrima. They are supposed to be among the quicker arts to master. I've been studying martial arts since the mid seventies, and the truth is that I won't even master either of these in this lifetime! Gee, I wish I was as smart as that guy.

 

[foggymorning162]

It is a shame that so many people are just in it for the money it kind of makes it discouraging for a beginner to go to seminars after reading this thread but I have learned a lot from them. My instructor believes and I agree that you there is no right or wrong MA and that you can learn new things and new ways to apply what you already know by having guest instructors come in and give seminars. I have taken seminars on Krav Mega and kick boxing just to name a couple, I don't claim to know anything about either but I did learn valuable lessons from them.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I hear you loud and clear on this. Recently, I worked out with an experienced Kenpo/JKD/Kali stylist, at least 15 years my junior, who proceeded to mention at least half-a-dozen other systems he claimed that he "knew". This included systems such as pa-qua and hsing-i. Hell, these systems are said to take a lifetime to perfect! I asked him how a man in his mid thirties who trained as a "hobby" could know so much. In a mildly condescending tone he patiently explained that once you firmly grasp the foundations of the martial arts that you can easily assimilate new forms.

Well, boy was I ever humbled. I study two arts, Wing Tsun and Escrima. They are supposed to be among the quicker arts to master. I've been studying martial arts since the mid seventies, and the truth is that I won't even master either of these in this lifetime! Gee, I wish I was as smart as that guy.

This reminds me of the guy I did a two person form with years ago who was a master of Taiji (Chen, Wu, Yang and Sun) after 1.5 years of training that was absolutely horrible at the 2 person form from a martial arts/application perspective. I was having a big problem with his floppy incomplete form and I was trying not to lock him or put him on the floor and he "sensed my frustration" and just before the I don’t do MA comment he told that if I keep practicing I will get it just like he did. I had been in taiji/CMA for over 5 years at that point and MA for over 20. I told him something like I was much more interested in the martial arts of it than the dance to which he replied “I don’t DO martial arts… I DO taiji”.

Sadly my first Sifu is HIGHLY responsible for producing guys like you are talking about these days (actually he was a student of my first sifu). He has produced many a master of Yang, Chen, Wu, Sun, Zhaobao, taiji that are also masters of Shaolin Long Fist, Liu He Ba Fa, Wudang and Qigong. He even gives out lifetime certificates for it these days… for a rather hefty fee. And they are all so convinced they are masters it is not funny. And he has a school FULL of students. If you look at his webpage today he himself is a master of so many styles it is amazing. But I know what he learned in China and what he knew when he first got to this country and he has become a master of one heck of a lot of styles in 15 years.

It is a shame that so many people are just in it for the money it kind of makes it discouraging for a beginner to go to seminars after reading this thread but I have learned a lot from them. My instructor believes and I agree that you there is no right or wrong MA and that you can learn new things and new ways to apply what you already know by having guest instructors come in and give seminars. I have taken seminars on Krav Mega and kick boxing just to name a couple, I don't claim to know anything about either but I did learn valuable lessons from them.

There is a group in my area that holds Chen Zhenglei seminars every year and they are good seminars and they are good people who are trying real hard to learn Chen Taijiquan. I believe at one time they just followed him around the country going to every single seminar he did. So you can learn some from seminars, how much however is another question. As my yang Sifu said “how much can you really learn in 2 days twice a year”. But if you go and are serious and train what you were shown over and over you can learn something. Not as much as you could have learned if you had access to Chen Zhenglei everyday or every week for that year, but you will learn. What bothers me are the people that go to a 2 day seminar with (for example) any of the Chen family and after 2 days go off and claim their teacher is Chen X and start teaching the 19 for or the 38 form or any other form they learned in those 2 days.