Hmm, I think this is the first time I've quoted an entire thread in one post....
Hi Ivan,
To be honest, much of what you have written is, at best, partially correct. I might go back and cover the whole blog post after this, but for now, let's deal with the conversation we have here. Suffice to say that your blog is not one I'd send people to for much genuine insight or information... we may cover parts of why as we go.
Ha, well, Ivan really did the job for you... name a thread "The Way of the Samurai", and I'm certainly at least going to check out what is being said!
Hmm.... I don't think I'd put it that way, either... No, there is/was not a singular form of "samurai philosophy", especially not a universal approach followed over the near-millennia that the samurai were in existence as a social force, not even in a single smaller period of time across the many areas and domains of Japan (not even getting into the stratification of ranking within the samurai class themselves, or the distinction between more "rural" samurai and their urban counterparts, and so on).
I'm also unsure what you mean when you say "'Samurai' was more a code of behaviour and values of the warrior class"... "Samurai"
were the warrior class... they were a social class, not an approach to anything, nor a set of beliefs or anything else. If you mean "Bushido" was more a code of behaviour etc, then... yeah, that's still incorrect on a number of facets. Mainly in that bushido, really, didn't exist (which is one of the issues with the blog).
Well, there really wasn't a "code" in the first place... so that's not really correct. As far as the idea of "action in the face of death", that, I would suggest, is a more Western (and modern) thought... as with much of this, there is a lot more nuance (and context) needed to really get a grasp on this idea... more realistically, I would suggest that a better interpretation of much of samurai ethos is commitment to an intent... in an idealised fashion, that can be seen as commitment regardless of the cost, provided the cost is not that of honour (of course, reality was often quite different).
No, he didn't. That was Tsunetomo.
This, I cannot disagree with more. Whose death is of paramount relevance... the idea of throwing your life away indiscriminately is antithetical to samurai (or any warrior) ideal... and, while a retainer might not overly differentiate between whether a particular action would be a lethal one or not, the context is vitally important. Additionally, if there is no care as to whether or not the action results in your own death, or if it results in the deaths of others, then there are some serious psychological problems at play.
I get the romanticised imagery of that reasoning, but I don't feel that it's overly accurate. They didn't engage in poetry, and tea ceremony, and calligraphy, and becoming patrons of various arts such as kabuki and noh theatre, was less to do with a mental pre-occupation with their own death, and more due to factors such as the influence of Chinese culture in establishing Japanese (Heian) social norms and expectations. In a real way, they engaged in such activities, as thinking only of killing people and being killed doesn't make for very comfortable company... and is not a good image to present as a ruling class.
Again, I'd dispute this in a few ways... the end of the Sengoku Jidai, and the final steps in unifying Japan under the newly established Tokugawa Shogunate, gave rise to a period of peace, yes... but that, in many ways, lead to a greater development and spread of the "samurai ethos"... as many new samurai traditions were founded, developed, and distributed around Japan. These arts became much more sophisticated than in previous generations, and more time was spent looking to the ideals and teachings beyond the physical combative techniques (these teachings had always been present, of course, but they took more of a frontline position now). Samurai became more involved in actually running their domains, acting as everything from the highest officials and rulers, down to police and firefighters.
Now, if you're meaning that the removal of constant warfare lead to a slackening in the warrior mentality, there are arguments in both directions... one is that, removed from the crucible of war, the focus shifted, and the edge was lost to a degree... on the other hand, it allowed younger warriors, especially when acting as ronin (and, it must be noted, being a ronin was hardly the "badge of dishonour" that it is often shown as... it was a situation that many samurai found themselves in at times, with some daimyo [regional lords] insisting that their samurai spend a period of time as a ronin as part of ensuring they got experience outside of the domain) to travel around both learning and testing their skills against other warriors. This, naturally, lead to a greater spread of warrior traditions, and of the "samurai ethos". Of course, both arguments are true, and it varied across Japan, and over the 250 years of peace that endured.
Well... to be technical, it was after the Meiji-jidai (ending in 1912) when Hagakure Kikigaki began to be circulated outside of Saga (in the 1930's, largely)...but that's a minor point. More importantly, one of the biggest reasons for Hagakure not enjoying a larger influence on Japanese culture (such as that of Takuan Soto's letters to Yagyu Munenori, and other documents) is that, in a number of areas, the writing was problematic (politically), due to Tsunetomo's rather unveiled criticisms of some of the Tokugawa policies, as well as persons in the area he lived... as a result, it was seen as a "secret document", passed around only within trusted circles in Saga itself.
In fact, a large part of it's success in being shown to a wider public was almost the opposite of the idea of being a "curiosity"... instead, it was used to help push a nationalistic message from the government and military factions, capitalising on other works, such as Nitobe's book on Bushido (a seminal, but problematic work in itself).
Eh, I wouldn't describe it that way... it's a window into the thinking of a retired bureaucrat, who never saw combat, and fantasised about it, romanticising the "days of old" and lamenting his lack of being born in such a time. By today's standard, Tsunetomo would be considered a rather right-wing, highly conservative individual, someone who represents a more fringe, rather than mainstream belief and attitude, and far from a typical understanding of what a "samurai" would have been.
Addressed next.
Hmm... that's not really what bunbu ryodo refers to, though... that's just doing different things. Bunbu ryodo has more of a sense of a committed study of both cultural (including literary) and martial (military) teachings and skills... interestingly, while bunbu ryodo is the most common term, Musashi used the term "bunbu nido"... very similar, but with a slightly different emphasis... but, more to the point, if you were dedicating yourself to developing your skills as a writer, by studying (doing courses, finding an author to mentor you, consistently working on improving your usage of syntax and structure, then moving onto metaphor and imagery, and so on), then that would be more along the lines of the concept itself... and, while I don't want to be too critical, your blog suffers from both lacking information, and a fair number of writing issues as well.
It might be interesting to look into the history of kuji-no-ho and so on in Shinto Ryu.... oh, and welcome aboard!
The view of Zen being such a big influence in koryu is highly exaggerated... as you say, there were many other forms of Buddhism, as well as Shinto, Taoist, and Confucianist concepts that were a larger influence. As mentioned, Tsunetomo never saw any form of combat, as far as anyone has been able to ascertain.
Ha, yeah... I'd agree.
This.
Okay... to be clear, Brendan is correct.
Well.... no.
The Buddhist practices you discuss aren't really brought up much in Hagakure... in fact, the quote you attribute to Hagakure, implying that it was from the text of the book itself (meaning Yamamoto Tsunetomo's teachings), discussing Buddhist practices is this: "This requires great courage as well as concentration, for after the ego is gone one finds out that the self no longer exists, and one has died what Zen calls the Great Death: daishi".
The problem is that.... well, there's a number of problems. Let's start with the fact that there's little to no context as to what, precisely, requires such courage and concentration... it's a comment on the practice of zazen (seated meditation), which you briefly mention at the end of the preceding paragraph, but don't make a strong link to your quote (one of the writing issues I mentioned earlier... not the biggest, but still...). Next, there isn't really much mention of such practices as zazen throughout Hagakure itself... some mention of "setting your mind", but that's hardly unique to zazen, nor indeed specifically referring to it. But the biggest issue, of course, is that it's not from Hagakure.
This quote is from the introduction to William Scott Wilson's translation of the book, and not part of the book itself. It is part of a larger discussion of some of the concepts that may have informed Tsunetomo's world-view, and is Wilson's description. In fact, looking through the introduction there, it seems that you have spent more time plagiarising that than anything else (your translations of the Analects are directly lifted, largely without the surrounding context, from Wilson's publication)... and missed most of the contextual message in it. After all, Wilson is rather explicit in highlighting one of the few comments linked directly with Tsunetomo's Zen study, where he points out the lesson that "religions are for old men", meaning that, while he was introduced to such teachings early, his real foray into the field (including becoming a monk) was in his later years... in fact, it was specifically because he was forbidden from following his lord into death in a ritual suicide (junshi - literally: "proper death"); robbed of this option, he instead shaved his head, took tonsure, and became a monk... being a form of "junshi" from his life as a samurai...
Would you like a list of Christian Daimyo during the Sengoku period? Early Edo?
That said, like with much discussed here, it really depends on the particulars... Christianity was more prevalent in Kyushu than the rest of Japan... and, while Hideyoshi was quite concerned with it, his persecution ended with his death, and Tokugawa took a while to do much about re-invigorating the zeal... even when he did, Christianity survived as an underground religious teaching. It's also worth noting that it was dominantly the Catholics who were targeted... other sects were bothered less, or largely ignored.
Except that was not really how it worked... the ideals of a combination of cultural development and warrior skills was largely an imported concept from China in the 10th and 11th Centuries, and was in place from the dawn of the samurai class.
It's a good insight into a particular individual's beliefs and attitude... I wouldn't say it's a good source of information, however... that's a big difference.
I'll do you one better... here's a brilliant article on the concept:
http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/108831/1/article_4921.pdf
Out of interest, Tenshin, who do you study Shinto Ryu with? Oh, and... the whole "ninja" thing... yeah..... too many movies and kabuki....
I don't know that I'd put it quite like that... Buddhism had a fair amount of influence, depending on the faction, the time, the place, and so on... but I'd point to the various factions of Shinto as being more of the undercurrent of the general Japanese approach to religious concepts and understandings. And even more so when it comes to martial approaches and the samurai. After all, looking through the histories of koryu systems, there is a huge predilection towards Shinto deities being involved in the founding of many schools, with large numbers being centred around particular shrines... the most famous being the Katori and Kashima ones in Kanto, but also including literally hundreds of others. Combine that with most houses having a Shinto shrine, and most dojo having them as well, and the pendulum swings away from Buddhism, I would suggest.
Christianity to a lesser degree than the other two, really... but largely, yeah.
Yeah... you may be wrong.
Again, it depends entirely on the context... at times, the samurai were largely bureaucrats... or accountants... additionally, "beholden only to their peers"... the question would be, what peers? Japan is a highly stratified society, with everyone occupying a position in a hierarchy above or below others... an ashigaru is hardly a peer to a hatamoto, let alone a daimyo... realistically, they were beholden to their superiors, not their peers anyway...
A samurai might be "at heart... warriors", concerned with that first and foremost... but it was not the only approach. In fact, some of the more stoic figures would often lament the lack of focus on warrior skills in their fellow samurai.
Ha, true... of course, the point of military might is the gaining and securing of power... which leads to riches and wealth... so the idea of money not being a priority might be a somewhat "glass half full" way of viewing things as well...
Once again; this.
The big thing to emphasise in Brendan's comment is "
certain bushi"... the Shimadzu being a big example.
Very true. It should also be noted that most of them did so much later in life, so it was not a major factor during their "active days", as it were.
Yep!
Actually, this is interesting that you say... it's actually the other way around. In (rather) simple terms, your experiences/memories (I ate some ice-cream) inform your beliefs (I like ice-cream/don't like ice-cream/don't like cold food/like cold food/whatever), which then forms your values (I value the ice-cream/eating cold foods on a hot day/don't value highly ice-cream/don't value the pain of eating cold food with sensitive teeth), which then gives you your perceptions (ice-cream will be enjoyable/ice-cream will hurt my teeth/whatever), eventually shaping your behaviours (buy the ice-cream/don't buy the ice-cream).
Of course, if your experiences change, the rest will as well... someone tells you that you are putting on weight, that gives you the belief that you are overweight/out of shape, the value that you don't like feeling overweight, or being perceived as "fat", the perception that your diet is a big influence on your weight, and the behaviour of not buying and eating the ice-cream. No, it doesn't always make logical sense, but that's not the point... seemingly random things can have almost unseen effects... but my main point is that, no, beliefs do not come from perception, your perception comes from your beliefs and values. Little thing, but interesting.
Firstly, while there were a number of losses of historical records and artefacts during WWII, it was hardly a case of them being completely lost in all cases... there is still a lot of material out there. Second, Brendan is a member of two classical schools who maintain their own records.
Here's the thing. We have done the study (and continue to do so). You, from the blog post you have written, and your responses here, have not. That is Brendan's point.
While that is true, in this case, you appear to be arguing something that Brendan isn't... he's pointing out why Hagakure Kikigaki is not considered a particularly good resource, especially in isolation from a larger context...
Er..... okay?
Well, I'll put my 30 years aside, then... you've read about the topic for over half a decade?
You may want to look around a bit before thinking that's something laudable....
And written essays? Look, this is only because you're referencing it here, and because you made a thing about bunbu ryodo earlier... but if that article is an example of your essay writing, then... no. That's not meaningful at all. You jump from topic to topic with no linkage whatsoever... you don't finish thoughts... you start an explanation of bushido (out of pretty much nowhere), then change how you're breaking it down from numbered points, to having the second point not following the structure of the first point, then abandon that entirely to address the second part of the word, before dropping the explanation entirely before addressing the third part of the word... seriously, just a mess (oh, and for the record, "bushido" appears exactly zero times in Hagakure... the term was largely popularised by Inazo Nitobe, a Japanese ex-patriate Quaker living in Canada in the early 20th Century who wrote a romanticised and largely Christian-ised exploration of his native culture for the Western audience, 40 years after the samurai class was abolished, and believed he'd invented the word "bushido" as he'd never heard or read it before)... and feature a number of largely plagiarised and mis-attributed quotes, devoid of context.
Okay, that was a bit harsh, and I don't want to smack you round too much... but perhaps you're over-reaching a bit in your estimation of your level?
Hagakure is relatively accurate as the recollection of a young samurai's conversations with an older, largely embittered, retired samurai, lamenting the lack of what he thought samurai should be in the current generation in one place at one time, often going against many of the common sensibilities of the time... with reliability then also depending on the translation, which copy it was translated from, and exactly what selection of passages were chosen for the particular translation... that's about it.
Not Zen... and also known for the phrase "Respect Buddha and the gods (Shinto), but do not rely upon them."
Now, Kusunoki is an interesting one... yes, he was known as a dedicated and devout Buddhist (again, not Zen), but naturally observed Shinto practices just as diligently... additionally, when the Tokugawa's moved from a form of State Shinto (that would return later) to a form of Neo-Confucian as a basis for social structure and moral absolutes, Kusunoki was put forth as a stalwart of the new "religion"... despite the fact that he'd been painted as a traitor to the Northern Court for centuries following the Nambukocho period.
You may notice some patterns developing here... many Japanese turn towards Buddhism as they get older, as one of the central concepts relates to ways of approaching death... especially samurai. So finding samurai that "became" devoted Buddhists is hardly surprising... of course, I'm not sure what the "honour and military tactics" have to do with Buddhism... after all, Buddhists aren't meant to kill... which is a bit problematic for a professional warrior...
Yoshitsune was spared in the Heiji Disturbance (as it became known) when Taira Kiyomori killed his father, and was sent to a temple near Kyoto (the capital at the time), where he was looked after and trained by the monks there from the age of around 10. When he was 14 or 15, he left, as he had no interest in becoming a monk himself, ending in the care of the Fujiwara, learning military tactics and strategies, as well as combative methods there, eventually helping his half brother gain vengeance as the eventual victors of the Gempei Wars.
Of course, I wonder what the point is, bringing up 4 people from over 450 years of history, each of which just show that Buddhism is part of the Japanese culture...
The "state religion" of Japan has changed a number of times, always as a reflection of the culture of the time... and no-one has said that Buddhism didn't have influence. What has been said is that Zen Buddhism's influence is largely overstated.
No one has said that. I repeat: No one has said that. Perhaps we try without arguing a strawman?
Yeah... your article was nowhere near long enough to have that as a reason to ignore one of the most culturally important religious aspects, I feel... this post, on the other hand... sorry for anyone who read the whole thing!
