More or less aggressive?

[Xue Sheng]

I was reading an article this morning, in an old Journal of Asian Martial Arts from 2002, and it was dealing with a study that I believe was done by the University of Maine I will not go into great detail but it says that studies have been shown that participants in Traditional Martial Arts tend to exhibit fewer aggressive tendencies and articulate fewer aggressive fantasies than do individuals in the control population. It also went on to talk about practitioners on non-traditional martial arts showing an increase in aggressive behavior.

It defined non-traditional Martial arts as those without kata, meditative exercises, philosophy and etiquette derived from East Asian Traditions.

Now I have trained Traditional Martial Arts for many years and I currently am training I guess what would be considered an non-traditional art and I do not feel more aggressive nor do I feel that my current teacher is more aggressive than any other teacher I have had.

The article did interest me enough to look for the articles and books it referenced. If anyone is interested if I find an internet link to any of the articles I will post them.

As far as the books it referenced they were;
1) The Way of the Warrior: The Paradox of the Martial Arts (Paperback) by Howard Reid, Michael Croucher

2) Karate The Art of Empty Self (Paperback) by Terrence Webster-Doyle

Thoughts.

 

[CoryKS]

Could be a couple of things. Could be that the TMA's emphasize peaceful behavior to a degree that non-TMA's don't, and that the students are learning that. Another possibility is that the students self-select -- the peaceful students choose schools that appeal to them and the aggressive ones avoid the schools that include preachin' with the hittin'.

 

[Cthulhu]

The traditional vs. non-traditional division is too 'black and white' and isn't really representative of anything.

I think any system...or more accurately, school...that teaches in such a way as to allow people an outlet for aggessiveness will tend to have students who are generally less aggessive outside the dojo/dojang/kwoon/etc.

However, some schools (or systems, or teachers) may try to encourage aggressiveness, most likely for competition (think MMA or NHB).

The examples that come to mind would be typical MMA fighters and the Dog Brothers. Both activities are incredibly violent, but the goals of each are very different. One would tend to produce people who may have aggressive tendencies because of the nature of the competition and the need to be more aggressive than their opponents. The other uses the incredibly violent activity as a means to grow and stresses comraderie, friendship, and sharing amongst its members.

Cthulhu
babbling on cold medication

 

[Grenadier]

I won't speak for the MMA community, since I am not a practitioner of such things. I can, however offer some insights as to why the TMA practitioners are like this.

Most TMA schools teach their students to be well-disciplined people, and that the use of their martial arts is for the purpose of the defense of one's self, the defense of others, and the defense of one's country. Being the aggressor is not part of the cirriculum, and is often times discouraged.

Furthermore, most TMA schools teach for the purpose of bettering someone from within, instead of having them train in an attempt to be better than others.

Even one of the most offensive-minded TMA systems, the Kyokushin-kai, teach their people to be honorable folks, and to uphold the honor code that Oyama Shihan instilled.

Also, just as important, most practitioners of TMA adopt a more patient attitude, and take time to reflect on things. There are just some things that aren't worth wasting precious calories over, and if it means swallowing one's pride, then so be it.

The TMA is about all sorts of rewards, both short-term, and especially long-term. To reap those long-term rewards, though, takes dedication, discipline, and patience, something of which the TMA will most likely teach.

 

[exile]

Another possibility is that the students self-select -- the peaceful students choose schools that appeal to them and the aggressive ones avoid the schools that include preachin' with the hittin'.

Good point, Cory---kind of makes it hard to see what if any implications for causation can be safely drawn from the results reported in JAMA...

 

[crushing]

The thing that immediately came to my mind was the possibility of the attraction of either the TMA or NonTMA based on the person's predisposition.

Are the more aggressive people less likely to participate in or switch to an art that doesn't have the kata, meditation and philosophy aspects? Maybe aggressive people don't see a need for all that 'crap' (not my view, but it may be how they view it) and just want to get to what they may think is the 'good' stuff right away.

Then again, maybe katas, meditation and philosophy are the chamomile of the MAs?

 

[meta]

This is an interesting topic, something that I've been thinking about a lot lately. I tend to think that the "traditional" element in traditional martial arts (philosophy, meditation, etc.) is what curbs aggressiveness that comes with martial arts practice. This is just a guess, however, and I do not mean to generalize and say that practitioners of "non-traditional" martial arts are more aggressive.

In a book on traditional martial arts I read that it is common for novice martial artists to become slightly more aggressive, but this aggressiveness subsides as they learn more about the art. Personally, I find that ethical and philosophical aspects of my art help me keep my aggressive impulses in check.

There are quite a few studies on this, I believe. I did a quick search on EBSCO, and found several articles. Reynes and Loran (2004) studied aggressiveness among young boys practicing karate:

Analysis indicated that after two years of practice, karate training seemed to have neither positive nor negative effects on aggressiveness scores, while judo training seemed to have a negative effect on anger scores. However, the results suggested the importance of kata or meditation in training sessions on self-control acquisition for such young boys.

(Emphasis mine)

Results of another study are similar to what you read in that article. Nosanchuk and MacNeil (1989) demonstrate that over time traditional training creates less aggressiveness, while "modern-style" training results in increased aggressiveness. Interestingly enough, the authors interviewed students who had experience training in different schools in addition to other types of students.

Another possibility is that the students self-select -- the peaceful students choose schools that appeal to them and the aggressive ones avoid the schools that include preachin' with the hittin'.

These two researchers controlled for this "selection" factor.

I can post reference information for these articles if you are interested.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Another thing I read recently and I think this might be what some are talking about is the basic philosophical difference between TMA and MA for sport. TMA is trained to not fight if you will. In TMA or at least in my experience you train to know how to fight and at the same time trained not to use it unless there is absolutely no choice. Where in sports MA you are training with the goal to get into a ring and fight to over-come your opponent. Yet Sport Karate and Sport tkd are considered more traditional.

But CoryKS makes a good point. This could be just a matter of what different personalities gravitate towards as well or as crushing said predisposition. But I have trained TMA for many years and recently became incredibly interested in Sanda (non-sport version) and I do not feel more or less aggressive because of it.

But is it something as simple as that which they were talking about. I know I am at an advantage here because I have read the article but it seemed to be focusing on the lack of kata, meditation and philosophy as the reason.

And if by the definition give in the article of a non-traditional MA that would also include JKD and Sanda as well as BJJ and MMA. And although I have trained Sanda only briefly I would have to say my sanda sifu is much less aggressive than my last Xingyi sifu (not that he was looking for a fight, it was just his personality) The guy looks scary enough when he stands in Santi to make me not want to mess with him. But please don't get me wrong he is a good Xingyi teacher and a pretty nice guy overall.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is an interesting topic, something that I've been thinking about a lot lately. I tend to think that the "traditional" element in traditional martial arts (philosophy, meditation, etc.) is what curbs aggressiveness that comes with martial arts practice. This is just a guess, however, and I do not mean to generalize and say that practitioners of "non-traditional" martial arts are more aggressive.

In a book on traditional martial arts I read that it is common for novice martial artists to become slightly more aggressive, but this aggressiveness subsides as they learn more about the art. Personally, I find that ethical and philosophical aspects of my art help me keep my aggressive impulses in check.

There are quite a few studies on this, I believe. I did a quick search on EBSCO, and found several articles. Reynes and Loran (2004) studied aggressiveness among young boys practicing karate:

This is an interesting point, if early in training martial artist act more aggressively it would make sense because it is over time that in a TMA you get more and more into the forms, philosophy and meditation.

Results of another study are similar to what you read in that article. Nosanchuk and MacNeil (1989) demonstrate that over time traditional training creates less aggressiveness, while "modern-style" training results in increased aggressiveness. Interestingly enough, the authors interviewed students who had experience training in different schools in addition to other types of students.



These two researchers controlled for this "selection" factor.

This is an interesting point, if early in training martial artist act more aggressively it would make sense because it is over time that in a TMA you get more and more into the forms, philosophy and meditation.

I can post reference information for these articles if you are interested.

I am interested thanks

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

I'd be interested in seeing how that study was performed. I'd agree that aggressiveness is a trait thats more emphasized in modern training methods, but then for both self-defence and ring fighting, aggression a very useful.
Of course so is control, and its one that has to be emphasized along side it.
I'd say its mostly a case of training objectives achieving their goal.
Most modern styles are very combat focused, and aggression is a key tool in combat.
Whereas most TMA tend to lean more towards the spiritual aspects and aggression is not usually a trait that is useful for that.

 

[meta]

Reynes, Eric and Jean Lorant. 2004. "Competitive Martial Arts and Aggressiveness: A 2-yr Longitudinal Study Among Young Boys." Perceptual & Motor Skills 98(1):103-115.​

Reynes and Lorant published several articles on this topic. See also:

Reynes, Eric and Jean Lorant. 2001. "Do Competitive Martial Arts Attract Aggressive Children." Perceptual & Motor Skills 93(2):382-386.
​

Nosanchuk, T. A. and M. L. Catherine MacNeil. 1989. "Examination of the Effects of Traditional and Modern Martial Arts Training on Aggressiveness." Aggressive Behavior 15(2):153-159.​

Full text is available through EBSCOHost (Academic Search Premier), or just PM me and I will email it to you.

 

[meta]

TMA is trained to not fight if you will. In TMA or at least in my experience you train to know how to fight and at the same time trained not to use it unless there is absolutely no choice.

This has been my experience as well. I think it is natural, however. When you have people who are trained to fight, you have to somehow control them lest they start fighting with whomever they want. This is not to say that kata, MA philosophy and meditation server purely utilitarian purposes.

 

[searcher]

Just a random thought here, but we should not confuse aggression with anger. You can be aggressive without being angry and the inverse is also possible.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Reynes, Eric and Jean Lorant. 2004. "Competitive Martial Arts and Aggressiveness: A 2-yr Longitudinal Study Among Young Boys." Perceptual & Motor Skills 98(1):103-115.​

Reynes and Lorant published several articles on this topic. See also:

Reynes, Eric and Jean Lorant. 2001. "Do Competitive Martial Arts Attract Aggressive Children." Perceptual & Motor Skills 93(2):382-386.​

Nosanchuk, T. A. and M. L. Catherine MacNeil. 1989. "Examination of the Effects of Traditional and Modern Martial Arts Training on Aggressiveness." Aggressive Behavior 15(2):153-159.​

Full text is available through EBSCOHost (Academic Search Premier), or just PM me and I will email it to you.

Thanks

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just a random thought here, but we should not confuse aggression with anger. You can be aggressive without being angry and the inverse is also possible.

Very good point

 

[Shotochem]

Just a random thought here, but we should not confuse aggression with anger. You can be aggressive without being angry and the inverse is also possible.

I agree.

Agressive or just more assertive? less passive? more confident?

If you started MA as a insecure timid selfconscious introverted personality and then later became a secure confident well adjusted person who is more assertive ......can that be a bad thing?

I put little creedence in these type of studies as their results tend to be subjective to the whim and interpretation of the person conducting the study. They tend to find what they want to find without any real scientific data to back it up.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I vaguely remember something about aggression and anger from back in a college class on Human Motivation. I will have to look it up, assuming I am still able to locate the book and it has not turned to dust.

And I would have to agree with the putting little faith in such studies. It does all come down to statistics and statistics can be manipulated to what you want them to say. The article does go into some detail on how the study was done and if I get in the mood to type copious amounts of verbiage I will post it.

But I do find the subject fascinating and since I come from TMA and I am not into a little Non-Traditional and liking it a lot, it just interested me more. But as I said in another post I am kind of stuck in this Philosophical loop lately.

Are the findings true, biased or from to small a group to tell? Either way I am going to read the posted articles and try and find the ones sighted in the study.

Thanks.