the value of crosstraining

[Mantis Leg]

Recently a friend told me she had a stalker bothering her at the store she works in. Next she tells me she's got a knife that she'll use to defend herself. Her boyfriend is a TKD practicioner (5thdan?) and he's given her some pointers to go along with the knife. She shows me the guard position that he taught her: an x block with her arms crossed on her chest, knife in the top hand.
I know this is a great block to keep from being kicked/punched but it seems dangerous as a tactical defense. In her situation she needs to worry more about being grabbed than struck to the body.
I told her the knife is more trouble for her than it is a help, I recommended a can of mace. At least she can keep an assailant at a distance with that. Oh yeah, here's the kicker! The knife is an automatic, and her man is a police officer. In our state these knives are illegal!
I feel all MA offer something, but no one MA is the be-all end-all. The cop's advice here could potentially land her in a world of trouble. His blind devotion to TKD(I know this by talking to him) misadvises this untrained girl to utilize a weapon in a situation that probably won't warrant it.:soapbox:

 

[arnisador]

It's a bad idea to carry a weapon that you don't know how, or wouldn't be willing, to use. The latter matters with theknife as some people will find it psychologically hard to cut someone. I think that mace/pepper spray is a good suggestion. It's easy to learn how to use it and there are very few worries about badly injuring someone if it is used (though some people think it's caused some deaths in those sensitive to it).

The stance you describe sounds like the person would be settin themselves up to be trapped but perhaps I am not visualizing it properly.

 

[Mantis Leg]

You are absolutely right about the trap. A simple demonstration of me putting my hand on her hers pinned both of her arms. This little demo convinced her of leaving the knife home and going with the mace.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Is it legal in your state to carry mace without going through a state course?

Not knowing the TKD person i will make a very general tatement : most tkd people that I know are trained more for tournament than the street. The cross block posistion sounds like a good way for her to get the knife taken away because as you said she is untrained.
As far as the officer giveing it to her .Well they somethimes forget the law applies to them abecause all they do is flash there badge and walk away. There for they sometimes make mistakes in judgement when it comes to the rest of us.
Shadow

 

[Mantis Leg]

I'm not really sure if a course is required but I'm sure that the carrier needs to be registered with the local police

 

[Cthulhu]

One key factor here is that TKD is almost exclusively an emptyhand art. The only weapon I've seen taught in TKD classes is the staff, and that was only forms. The only bladework taught is for any self-defense moves against a knife. I am by no means bashing the art...I happen to train with a TKD instructor when possible and one of my guros is a 2nd degree BB in TKD. I'm merely pointing out that TKD is not a weapons-based art...on that, I think everybody can agree.

Another troubling issue is that a LEO is condoning someone to carry a weapon illegally. That is gross incompetence and that LEO should be dismissed. I think in Florida, we are allowed to carry automatic blades if we have concealed weapons permits, but I'm pretty sure it isn't allowed just because you're dating a LEO.

Also, from the little FMA I've been exposed to thus far, the knife is a dynamic weapon, meant to be always in some state of motion. It is conceivable that this LEO has had some weapons training from some other art, but judging by the rather poor stance he taught to his girlfriend, that isn't very likely. If you don't know something, don't endanger someone else (particularly a loved one!) by teaching them poor self-defense. After only a couple of months or so in the FMA, I'm not going to be foolish enough to try to teach others. I don't know it, I ain't gonna teach it.

Bad cop. Bad boyfriend. Bad martial artist.

This is how it should have been handled, if he were a sound, rational person:

1) Being a LEO, he should start the process of getting a restraining order on the stalker. Furthermore, he could also start visiting his girlfriend at her store. Often. In full uniform.

2) The mace is a good idea. It is legal to carry in most, if not all, of the U.S. States. You don't even really need any training. Just point and shoot (preferably downwind).

3) He should have told his girlfriend to make sure she is always with at least one other person until the restraining order is granted (and possibly after, too).

Bad situation, only made worse by extremely bad advice.

Cthulhu

 

[vincefuess]

NEVER weild a weapon you haven't trained with!! Especially a bladed one. Sheesh! I would rather see her carry a firearm- you've got a wide margin for error there, and the advantage of distance. Chemical sprays are a GREAT idea, but they can be rough in a confined area! The knife thing sounds like a real whacko idea, especially considering the source.

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Cthulhu

Bad cop. Bad boyfriend. Bad martial artist.

This is how it should have been handled, if he were a sound, rational person:

1) Being a LEO, he should start the process of getting a restraining order on the stalker. Furthermore, he could also start visiting his girlfriend at her store. Often. In full uniform.

2) The mace is a good idea. It is legal to carry in most, if not all, of the U.S. States. You don't even really need any training. Just point and shoot (preferably downwind).

3) He should have told his girlfriend to make sure she is always with at least one other person until the restraining order is granted (and possibly after, too).

Bad situation, only made worse by extremely bad advice.

Cthulhu

I dont think using a weapon is so great, unless you get some kind of training. Even with mace or anything else. The problems with weapons is that the more they are efficient, the more leathal they are to yourself if you can't use them correctly. I've never tried using mace, but I think that it could be difficult to get it out of a pocket or purse, and then making sure that it's pointing correctly. The person can then learn to hold the mace in the hand when going remote places, but what happens if you lose the grip, because you get scared or something. The best weapon , and probably legal everywere is something like a Kobutan, with a piece of thread through it, and put your fingres trough. THis would be difficult to loose and easy to use. Also the way it can be used is so simulair to the way a person will react, that it would be efficient. But again your making the person depending on a weapon. The weapon should be the leverage not the solution.

Going in pars is a very good idea. also calling home and saying that your on the way home and so on.

It's sad that a stalker can ruin your life that way. But I think most important is to take control of the situation, and not let the person take control.


/Yari

 

[bscastro]

It is interesting that her boyfriend would suggest using a knife and also suggest an x-block type of use of it considering TKd doesn't really handle knife type stuff.

in any case, someone once told me, "If you carry a knife it better made of chocolate, because unless you're really good, you'll end up eating it."

Cheers,
Bryan

 

[Rubber Ducky]

A knife is extremely easy to use and extremely uncomfortable for the opponent even in untrained hands. All that is really required is the willingness to use it.

Untrained people kill each other with knives all the time. They are dangerous, and not to themselves.

As for the stalker, she really would be better off with a handgun. Keep the knife and the sprays for use while getting the handgun into play, but the gun is the best option.

Should someone who wants to use a weapon get training in that weapon? Obviously, in my opinion. However, it's not harmful to carry a weapon while you're waiting to get trained.

With weapons you don't have to be good, just good enough.

Pierre

 

[bscastro]

Good enough is the key word. Here are some questions relating to the issue...
1. How strong is the female? Can the stalker wrestle the knife away from her? Is the knife more likely to fall into the stalker's hands?
2. How comfortable is she with the knife? Will she drop it or fumble with it while being attacked?
3. Does she have the internal factors necessary to stab someone with the knife? or would pepperspray be more practical?
4. Can she retrieve the weapon quickly? Or is it buried in her purse?

It is not a simple matter of just that untrained people can wield a knife and use it. Sure they can in a general sense. However, we are looking at an individual case also. An individual (in this case our female victim) needs to assess whether it would really be safer for her to have a knife or would it be better to have another type of protection.

Cheers,
Bryan

 

[Rubber Ducky]

Originally posted by bscastro

1. How strong is the female? Can the stalker wrestle the knife away from her? Is the knife more likely to fall into the stalker's hands?

This is a spurious question. If she is an average female and the stalker is an average male, then the answer to the strength question is *always* "not nearly strong enough". Note I say "average". There is no doubt that a knife would make her strength far more than if she didn't have one.

A 5 year old is no threat to an adult male, a 5 year old with a knife can be.

2. How comfortable is she with the knife? Will she drop it or fumble with it while being attacked?

That's a risk for everyone. As someone else on the net frequently quotes: "Sometimes even monkeys fall from trees"

3. Does she have the internal factors necessary to stab someone with the knife? or would pepperspray be more practical?

This, indeed, is something we all must come to terms with if we decide to carry weapons. There's nothing to this but to test it in "the field", because until we have to do it we'll never know if we can.

4. Can she retrieve the weapon quickly? Or is it buried in her purse?

This is not restricted to the knife as a weapon. People who carry weapons to use have to consider accessibility.

It is not a simple matter of just that untrained people can wield a knife and use it. Sure they can in a general sense. However, we are looking at an individual case also. An individual (in this case our female victim) needs to assess whether it would really be safer for her to have a knife or would it be better to have another type of protection.

Cheers,
Bryan

The answer is simple; she is safer from her stalker with a knife than without. Personally I would suggest a handgun for her, along with other weaponry including a knife. But handguns can be hard to get a hold of on short notice, while we all have knives in our kitchen.

The facts are pretty simple. If the stalker intends to do her harm, then she needs to carry a weapon that has the potential to inflict lethal force on him because it may come down to that level of force or nothing. The "take it away and use it against her" argument is spurious when applied just to the knife. Any weapon can potentially be taken away and used against the wielder, however, if she has no knife, the stalker gets to skip the "take away" step and move right into the personal violence.

I think we're in basic agreement that she needs some kind of physical protection. I just don't think that the arguments against the knife hold much water because there is no argument specifically against the knife that can't be applied to any other weapon.

If it were my girlfriend with the stalker, I'd find the guy and "explain" to him why it's an extremely bad idea to bother her. Every time he shows up to bother her, he gets a "mysterious visitor" who makes sure he has a violent "accident". Make no threats, give no warnings, and always have an alibi.

But that's just me. :ultracool:

Pierre

 

[tshadowchaser]

I would tend to agree with the last post. A late night visit to this person or just a few repeated "words of discouragement" mgiht make him see the light(when he woke up).
I don't think any of us would tell you to use a baseball bat on the guys knees, because that would be illegal. But if he is trully stalking and the police will not do anything he most likely should/could have a bad fall or something. and we all know that your friends would say you where somewhere else, or should I say you where somewhere elsewith alot of friends.