The Type of Men they are.

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Tgace

Tgace

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http://www.usmcpress.com/heritage/who_heroes.htm

A high school senior in Ohio, Adrienne, got an English class assignment. She had to research and write a thesis. And, she could pick her topic.

Adrienne dipped back into our Nation's history. She reached back to a time before she was born, back to a time of national turmoil, back to the time of the war in Vietnam. Today, that long-ago conflict is a mere footnote in her history books. Who fought? Why? Who survived? Who died? Who were the heroes?

From her Nation's long struggle during the war in Vietnam, Adrienne picked her topic: WHO ARE THE HEROES?

An exhaustive search began. As part of her research, young Adrienne posted a notice on the web-site of the USMC Vietnam Helicopter Association. For the Marine Corps helicopter crews who flew and fought in Vietnam, she asked: "Who are the heroes?"

The many responses included an e-mail reply from Marion Sturkey, a Marine Corps helicopter pilot in Vietnam. He wrote not of glory and valor. He never mentioned anything he did, or tried to do. Instead, he wrote of basic human virtues: commitment, loyalty, brotherly love, and a cause greater than self. His reply to a young American schoolgirl is quoted below, verbatim:




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

March 6, 2001

Adrienne:

I understand you are researching a project about heroism during the war in Vietnam. I commend you for the extent of your research.

"Who are the heroes?" you ask. I had the privilege of knowing many heroes during my time in Vietnam in 1966-1967. But, I doubt they are the type of men you would recognize as such. They were simply common men. Actually, "boys" would be more accurate with regard to many of them. They were not the "Follow Me!" type you may have seen in the movies. I have never heard any of them call themselves brave, although I witnessed what you would call bravery on a daily basis.

So, who are the heroes? They were the men (or "boys," many just a year or so older than yourself) who believed in each other, who relied on each other, and who sacrificed for each other. They were bound together by simple loyalty to their fellow Marines, their friends. They shared an unspoken trust and responsibility. Each knew that no matter how grave his peril, his friends would try to save him. They might fail and lose their own lives in the attempt. But, we all knew that they would try. We each had the same obligation. When one of our friends was in peril, we had to try, despite the danger. We had no choice. That was the pact we made. That was our code.

Heroes were soft-spoken men like Jim McKay, a helicopter gunner. Jim had survived his scheduled time in combat and was scheduled to fly home on the night of August 8, 1966. But, that night he learned that four of his friends were cut off, surrounded, fighting for their lives in the dark. Jim refused to leave Vietnam. He volunteered to fly on a rescue mission. His helicopter was shot down.

Heroes were men like Joe Roman, a helicopter pilot. On January 26, 1967, he answered the plea for help from Marines trapped on a ridge in Laos. They warned him of the danger, but he disregarded the warning and flew down to attempt a rescue. He, too, got shot down. Wounded in the head and buttocks, he survived. But, he never talked about it afterwards. When questioned, he would shrug and say that it was "nothing anyone else wouldn't do." He was right. Incidentally, Joe died last year. I attended his internment in Arlington National Cemetery.

There were thousands of such heroes. I am honored to have had the privilege to have served with them. Simply stated, they believed in a cause greater than themselves. They believed in each other. They knew the danger, but they also knew their responsibility and their code. They shared a brotherly love that no earthly circumstance can shatter. They, along with the 58,000-plus names on The Wall in Washington, DC, are true heroes.

The heroes who survived are now in their fifties or sixties. You know them as fathers, uncles, neighbors, maybe teachers. They have jobs and families. They pay taxes and make our society function. They don't label themselves as heroes. Yet, they are American Patriots in every sense of the words. And, deep down inside, they still maintain that undying brotherly love for the men with whom they served in Vietnam, thirty years or so ago. Without question, they are your heroes.

I hope the foregoing will be of assistance to you.

Warmest regards,

Marion Sturkey
 

Sapper6

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those Marines are American hero's. God bless their souls. it's a shame to see that their actions are not respected, even if you don't believe in them. those boys are more American than half the folks on this board. like it or not.

@ Phantom: enjoy the freedom you have to desecrate their actions. it's because of actions like this in our nation's history that you have such a right.

i don't see any agenda behind the posting of such graphic happenings. and if such a thing exists, it is paying homage and tribute to the American Soldier and what they stand for.
 

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rmcrobertson said:
It is unfortunate that some are so far gone in hatred of their fellow Americans that they automatically assume that anybody who disagrees with them politically would reflexively insult American soldiers who--however they ended up there--are a) representing us, and b) fighting for their fellow soldiers. Personally, I don't need to be reminded every five minutes that brave men and women are out there risking their asses every day: I've known it since I was four years old.

I suspect it's because some have bought the ugly propaganda spouted by the likes of Michael Savage. I also suspect it's because some cannot tolerate the discussion and dissent that this country is all about. And I know it's because attacking other Americans and screaming about patriotism is a helluva sight easier actually thinking about issues and looking at reality.

I'll tell you something that's different from when I was a kid: too many people now feel perfectly OK about yapping that their fellow Americans are traitors and morally corrupt and whatever else.

Here's the difference between me and them: my theories tell me that I would be morally obligated to try and do the same thing those soldiers did if I possibly could, even if it was that SOB Mich. Savage out there. His theories tell him to leave me there.
I agree.

How easy it is "to face your neighbor" when you don't have the courage "to face the enemy"......:shrug:
 
R

rmcrobertson

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I'm completely mystified by the statement that anybody on this thread disrespected those Marines: could you maybe point it out to me?

Meanwhile, here's another little essay to read by someone you may've heard of.

Mistakes of Vietnam repeated with Iraq
by Max Cleland, September 18, 2003

"Welcome to Vietnam, Mr. President. Sorry you didn't go when you had the chance."

The president of the United States decides to go to war against a nation led by a brutal dictator supported by one-party rule. That dictator has made war on his neighbors. The president decides this is a threat to the United States.

In his campaign for president he gives no indication of wanting to go to war. In fact, he decries the overextension of American military might and says other nations must do more. However, unbeknownst to the American public, the president's own Pentagon advisers have already cooked up a plan to go to war. All they are looking for is an excuse.

Based on faulty intelligence, cherry-picked information is fed to Congress and the American people. The president goes on national television to make the case for war, using as part of the rationale an incident that never happened. Congress buys the bait -- hook, line and sinker -- and passes a resolution giving the president the authority to use "all necessary means" to prosecute the war.

The war is started with an air and ground attack. Initially there is optimism. The president says we are winning. The cocky, self-assured secretary of defense says we are winning. As a matter of fact, the secretary of defense promises the troops will be home soon.

However, the truth on the ground that the soldiers face in the war is different than the political policy that sent them there. They face increased opposition from a determined enemy. They are surprised by terrorist attacks, village assassinations, increasing casualties and growing anti-American sentiment. They find themselves bogged down in a guerrilla land war, unable to move forward and unable to disengage because there are no allies to turn the war over to.

There is no plan B. There is no exit strategy. Military morale declines. The president's popularity sinks and the American people are increasingly frustrated by the cost of blood and treasure poured into a never-ending war.

Sound familiar? It does to me.

The president was Lyndon Johnson. The cocky, self-assured secretary of defense was Robert McNamara. The congressional resolution was the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. The war was the war that I, U.S. Sens. John Kerry, Chuck Hagel and John McCain and 3 1/2 million other Americans of our generation were caught up in. It was the scene of America's longest war. It was also the locale of the most frustrating outcome of any war this nation has ever fought.

Unfortunately, the people who drove the engine to get into the war in Iraq never served in Vietnam. Not the president. Not the vice president. Not the secretary of defense. Not the deputy secretary of defense. Too bad. They could have learned some lessons:

Don't underestimate the enemy. The enemy always has one option you cannot control. He always has the option to die. This is especially true if you are dealing with true believers and guerillas fighting for their version of reality, whether political or religious. They are what Tom Friedman of The New York Times calls the "non-deterrables." If those non-deterrables are already in their country, they will be able to wait you out until you go home.

If the enemy adopts a "hit-and-run" strategy designed to inflict maximum casualties on you, you may win every battle, but (as Walter Lippman once said about Vietnam) you can't win the war.

If you adopt a strategy of not just pre-emptive strike but also pre-emptive war, you own the aftermath. You better plan for it. You better have an exit strategy because you cannot stay there indefinitely unless you make it the 51st state.

If you do stay an extended period of time, you then become an occupier, not a liberator. That feeds the enemy against you.

. If you adopt the strategy of pre-emptive war, your intelligence must be not just "darn good," as the president has said; it must be "bulletproof," as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld claimed the administration's was against Saddam Hussein. Anything short of that saps credibility.

If you want to know what is really going on in the war, ask the troops on the ground, not the policy-makers in Washington.

In a democracy, instead of truth being the first casualty in war, it should be the first cause of war. It is the only way the Congress and the American people can cope with getting through it. As credibility is strained, support for the war and support for the troops go downhill. Continued loss of credibility drains troop morale, the media become more suspicious, the public becomes more incredulous and Congress is reduced to hearings and investigations.

Instead of learning the lessons of Vietnam, where all of the above happened, the president, the vice president, the secretary of defense and the deputy secretary of defense have gotten this country into a disaster in the desert.

They attacked a country that had not attacked us. They did so on intelligence that was faulty, misrepresented and highly questionable.

A key piece of that intelligence was an outright lie that the White House put into the president's State of the Union speech. These officials have overextended the American military, including the National Guard and the Reserve, and have expanded the U.S. Army to the breaking point.

A quarter of a million troops are committed to the Iraq war theater, most of them bogged down in Baghdad. Morale is declining and casualties continue to increase. In addition to the human cost, the war in dollars costs $1 billion a week, adding to the additional burden of an already depressed economy.

The president has declared "major combat over" and sent a message to every terrorist, "Bring them on." As a result, he has lost more people in his war than his father did in his and there is no end in sight.

Military commanders are left with extended tours of duty for servicemen and women who were told long ago they were going home. We are keeping American forces on the ground, where they have become sitting ducks in a shooting gallery for every terrorist in the Middle East.

--Max Cleland, former U.S. senator, was head of the Veterans Administration in the Carter administration. He teaches at American University in Washington.

Cleland, incidentally, lost his last election campaign, largely because of repeated attacks on his patriotism. Oh, and here's a quote about what sort of man is currently our Commander-in-Chief:

Lifelong Conservative Kevin Phillips on Bush's Service Record PBS's "Now" Sept. 17, '04

"As far as I can tell, George W Bush, because of connections, was made a 2nd Lieutenant without having to go through all the military, ROTC-type experience or the classes, or anyting like that. And as a result, he's nominally a former officer in the American military, but he's a military illiterate; he has no idea of these things. And we have, for the first time in American history a president who's ...probably the first person by National Guard definitions to have been the equivalent of AWOL.
Now, how can you send American kids over to Iraq with Humvees that aren't armored, without bullet proof vests, without decent arrangements for transportation and health, and do this when you were a guy who didn't show up for your own military training, didn't take the courses you have to take to be an officer in the U.S. services...I think this is an enormous issue."

Or here's an extended version of the type of men some of the people being discussed on this thread happen to be.

"Do You See A Pattern Here?

Democrats

Richard Gephardt
Air National Guard, 1965-71.

David Bonior
Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.

Tom Daschle
1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.

Al Gore
enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.

Bob Kerrey
Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.

Daniel Inouye
Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.

John Kerry
Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, Purple Hearts.

Charles Rangel
Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.

Max Cleland
Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Viet Nam.

Ted Kennedy
Army, 1951-53.

Tom Harkin
Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.

Jack Reed
Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.

Fritz Hollings
Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.

Leonard Boswell
Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars, and Soldier's Medal.

Pete Peterson
Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit.

Mike Thompson
Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.

Bill McBride
Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star with Combat V.

Gray Davis
Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.

Pete Stark
Air Force 1955-57

Chuck Robb
Vietnam

Howell Heflin
Silver Star

George McGovern
Silver Star & DFC during WWII.

Bill Clinton
Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received #311.

Jimmy Carter
Seven years in the Navy.

Walter Mondale
Army 1951-1953

John Glenn
WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18Clusters.

Tom Lantos
Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg.


Republicans

Dick Cheney
did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.

Dennis Hastert
did not serve.

Tom Delay
did not serve.

Roy Blunt
did not serve.

Bill Frist
did not serve.

Mitch McConnell
did not serve.

Rick Santorum
did not serve.

Trent Lott
did not serve.

John Ashcroft
did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.

Jeb Bush
did not serve.

Karl Rove
did not serve.

Saxby Chambliss
did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism.

Paul Wolfowitz
did not serve.

Vin Weber
did not serve.

Richard Perle
did not serve.

Douglas Feith
did not serve.

Eliot Abrams
did not serve.

Richard Shelby
did not serve.

Jon Kyl
did not serve.

Tim Hutchison
did not serve.

Christopher Cox
did not serve.

Newt Gingrich
did not serve.

Don Rumsfeld
served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.

George W. Bush
failed to complete his six-year National Guard; got assigned to Alabama so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S. Senate; failed to show up for required medical exam, disappeared from duty.

Ronald Reagan
due to poor eyesight, served in a non-combat role making movies.

B-1 Bob Dornan
enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.

Phil Gramm
did not serve.

John McCain
Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.

Dana Rohrabacher
did not serve.

John M. McHugh
did not serve.

JC Watts
did not serve.

Jack Kemp
did not serve. "Knee problem," although continued in NFL for 8 years.

Dan Quayle
Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard.

Rudy Giuliani
did not serve.

George Pataki
did not serve.

Spencer Abraham
did not serve.

John Engler
did not serve.

Lindsey Graham
National Guard lawyer.

Arnold Schwarzenegger
AWOL from Austrian army base.



Pundits & Preachers

Sean Hannity
did not serve.

Rush Limbaugh
did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.')

Bill O'Reilly
did not serve.

Michael Savage
did not serve.

George Will
did not serve.

Chris Matthews
did not serve.

Paul Gigot
did not serve.

Bill Bennett
did not serve.

Pat Buchanan
did not serve.

John Wayne
did not serve.

Bill Kristol
did not serve.

Kenneth Starr
did not serve.

Ralph Reed
did not serve.

Michael Medved
did not serve.

Charlie Daniels
did not serve.

Ted Nugent
did not serve. (He only shoots at things that don't shoot back.)

Supreme Court Justices

Antonin Scalia
did not serve.

Clarence Thomas
did not serve.


Maybe we could stop disrespecting all the vets, eh? Next time we're cranking up to go on a tear about lefties and libs, or we find ourselves saying that Democrats all hate their country?
 

Sapper6

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nice find. i, for once, learned something from a post you found. gotta love that google. how big is your hard drive anyway. lol

as for the disrespecting, refer to page one, and take the blinders off. the patriotic sarcasm is overwheling. but of course, you'd never notice it.
 

Rick Wade

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I am currently stationed in Iraq and one of the hardest thing I had to do to date was that last goodbye (hopefully not final) to my family and my last request was that if something should happen to me do not change your opinion of the war just because I got killed. Don't disrespect me and what I believe in, just because I got killed. If you guys are going to argue over politics then so be it; do it somewhere else. Those Marines have families; daughters and mothers, sons and wives. Feel bad for them not the Marines honor those Men put them on a higher pedestal for without men and women willing to defend our country we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

V/R

Richard English
Chief Petty Officer
U. S. NAVY
 
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Tgace

Tgace

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Brother John said:
Please, fill me in; why is that???



Your Brother
John
Army=Soldier
Marine Corps=Marines

That whole "rivalry" thing.
 

Makalakumu

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Rick Wade said:
I am currently stationed in Iraq and one of the hardest thing I had to do to date was that last goodbye (hopefully not final) to my family and my last request was that if something should happen to me do not change your opinion of the war just because I got killed. Don't disrespect me and what I believe in, just because I got killed. If you guys are going to argue over politics then so be it; do it somewhere else. Those Marines have families; daughters and mothers, sons and wives. Feel bad for them not the Marines honor those Men put them on a higher pedestal for without men and women willing to defend our country we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

V/R

Richard English
Chief Petty Officer
U. S. NAVY
Good Luck, Mr. English.

:asian:
 

Rick Wade

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Tgace said:
Army=Soldier
Marine Corps=Marines

That whole "rivalry" thing.

Let me amplify a little bit, if I may.

I have had the pleasure of working with the Marines allot in my Navy career. Let me tell you they are all consummate professionals.

Professional looking they have the best uniforms.
Professional Killers they do it better than any other service as a hole.
And when you give a Marine an order it will get done no ifs ands or buts.
I love the Marines. No job to hard.
with all that being said I have also had the privilege of working with the other branches of service. not always true with them.

Let me put it in a way you can understand.

Now I know that Brother John Takes Kenpo specifically a member of the AKKI.

Now what If I came up to him and said something like "hey that's a nice TKD kick you got there or is that a Tracy Tech". (ouch, sting)

Basically it is just hard to really explain unless your part of it.

Army = Soldiers
Navy = Sailors
Air Force = Airmen
Marine Corps = Marine

V/R

Rick
 

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upnorthkyosa said:
Good Luck, Mr. English.

:asian:

Thank you,

Luckly I have a job where I am not in harms way I happen to work in Al Faw Palace, but I do feel and hear explosions at least 3 to 4 times a week and I eat dinner with the guys going out on patrols and they just look beat down. I pray for their safety ever night. These guys are braver than most of you will ever know. Just my 2 cents from Baghdad.

V/R

Rick
 
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Tgace

Tgace

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I was a "Soldier" but have nothing but respect for my countrymen in the Corps. Heres a great piece on what it means to be a Marine...

http://www.usmc-thebasicschool-1966.com/lore_articles/theheartofbeingmarine.htm

All Marines die, in the red flash of battle or the white cold of the
nursing home. In the vigor of youth or the infirmity of age all will
eventually die, but the Marine Corps lives on. Every Marine who ever lived is living still, in the Marines who claim the title today. It is that sense of belonging to something that will outlive your own mortality that gives people a light to live by and a flame to mark their passing.

Marines call it esprit de corps!

Semper Fi
 
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Tgace

Tgace

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Great Santini Eulogy

A great movie based on a real Marine...

COLONEL DON CONROY'S EULOGY, by his son Pat Conroy

You don't like war or violence? Or napalm? Or rockets? Or cannons or death rained down from the sky? Then let's talk about your fathers, not ours. When we talk about the aviators who raised us and the Marines who loved us, we can look you in the eye and say "you would not like to have been American's enemies when our fathers passed overhead". We were raised by the men who made the United States of America the safest country on earth in the bloodiest century in all recorded history. Our fathers made sacred those strange, singing names of battlefields across the Pacific: Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, the Chosin Reservoir, Khe Sanh and a thousand more. We grew up attending the funerals of Marines slain in these battles. Your fathers made communities like Beaufort decent and prosperous and functional; our fathers made the world safe for democracy.
...

Let us leave you and say good-bye, Dad, with the passwords that bind all Marines and their wives and their children forever. The Corps was always the most important thing.

Semper Fi, Dad
Semper Fi, O Great Santini.
 

BrandiJo

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i have my oldest counsin in the mariens, a friend in the navy and my best friends boy friend just got outta bagdad im proud of each and every one of them adn all teh people they served with and im sure if they were given the chance they would be in pics like those
 

jfarnsworth

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Rick Wade said:
........ I eat dinner with the guys going out on patrols and they just look beat down. I pray for their safety ever night. These guys are braver than most of you will ever know. Just my 2 cents from Baghdad.

:asian:
Tell them all to stay safe. :asian:
:asian:
 
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Tgace

Tgace

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Gotta love the Marines...

"They are in front of us, behind us, and we are flanked on both sides by an enemy that outnumbers us 29:1. They can't get away from us now!"

-Col. Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC

When the Marines were cut off behind enemy lines and the Army had written the 1st Marine Division off as being lost because they were surrounded by 22 enemy divisions. The Marines made it out inflicting the highest casualty ratio on an enemy in history and destroying 7 entire enemy divisions in the process. [An enemy division is 16500+ men while a Marine division is 12500 men]
 

arnisador

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You can't help but be impressed by the bravery and loyalty. Remember, this is after weeks living in less-than-ideal conditions, and this attitude still wins out.
 

mj_lover

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random curiosity, why all the bickering about a show of dedication to comrades? these men and women are doing there duty. and i fully respect them, i would never be able to do it. i'm quite sure most of you would have hesitations when push comes to shove.
end of random senseless rant
:asian: to all the men and women whoserve there country
 

dubljay

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I have nothing but a deep respect for those who willingly swear an oath to protect our country. The way I see it is like this: Regardless of politics related to this war, those who serving in the millitary, regardless of the reasons they joined in the first place, they are fighting to keep my family, friends, and myself safe. The least I can do for these brave souls is to give my thoughts and prayers for their safety, and to thank them and their family for the sacrafices they have made. These men and women deserve gratitude and respect from every American citizen, for that is who they are wearing that uniform for, that is who they are bleeding for, that is who they have sacrificed for.

:asian:

-Joshua
 

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