The truth on Self-Defense and TaijiQuan / Tai Chi Chuan

[mograph]

Like this?

Sorry, but that doesn't look right to me: in my limited Tai Chi experience, including watching videos of Liang Shou-Yu and reading books (and watching videos) of Yang Jwing-Ming (and Ian Sinclair's video posted elsewhere, taijiquan practitioners don't hold onto the opponent for that long, nor do they follow him down that far. Rather, they tend to maintain as much of an upright, centered posture as possible by essentially pushing away, "bouncing" (peng), ejecting or repelling the opponent sooner than we see in that video. The contact time just looks too long to my eye: too much "hugging," not enough peng.

That doesn't mean that there are no throws in Tai Chi, just that I think that it's not normal to hang onto the opponent for that long.

But hey, it could be a Wudang style thing, and I'm biased towards Yang, Chen and Wu. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudang_t'ai_chi_ch'uan

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I should add that regardless of whether or not you think the Tai Chi forms contain double-legs, single-legs, and hip throws I do see plenty of techniques in the forms (arm drags, snap downs, hand fighting, redirects, sweeps, and off-balances) which would serve nicely to help set up double-legs, single-legs, and hip throws.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Like this?

Some of that is not taijiquan, the follow to the ground is not by the way, some of it is. Around 1:50 things I see as Wu style show up in a over the shoulder throw and sweeps, but the actual applications in Wu tend to be a bit more violent. But I understand you don't want to hurt the guy you're training with. The hip throws however, I have not seen in taijiquan.

Look for any videos of Eddie Wu doing applications, he tends to slam people to the floor pretty hard. Also probably why part of the Wu family curriculum includes learning break-falls

 

[Tony Dismukes]

@Xue Sheng , did you mean to write a reply to my post that you quoted?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I should add that regardless of whether or not you think the Tai Chi forms contain double-legs, single-legs, and hip throws I do see plenty of techniques in the forms (arm drags, snap downs, hand fighting, redirects, sweeps, and off-balances) which would serve nicely to help set up double-legs, single-legs, and hip throws.

Well, it has been said that every taijiquan posture can have multiple applications. But there should always be unity in the body in all applications. For example it is not block then punch, in taijiquan they would be virtually simultaneous

 

[Xue Sheng]

@Xue Sheng , did you mean to write a reply to my post that you quoted?

the one just above this one I quoted, yes. Am I missing the point here? I admit to not reading every pot in this thread

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But hey, it could be a Wudang style thing, and I'm biased towards Yang, Chen and Wu. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudang_t'ai_chi_ch'uan

Interesting. The instructor (Stephen Douglas)for the school in the video has (at least according to his bio) only practiced Tai Chi. However his main instructor was Ian Cameron. According to the Wiki article you linked, Cameron did study Judo, Karate, and Boxing before he started training Tai Chi under Cheng Tinhung. So it's possible that his Judo background did influence the way he taught throws in Tai Chi. I suppose we'd need to see demonstrations from practitioners some other branch of the Wudang style to see if that was the case.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

the one just above this one I quoted, yes. Am I missing the point here? I admit to not reading every pot in this thread

I just asked because your post here: The truth on Self-Defense and TaijiQuan / Tai Chi Chuan just quotes my post but then doesn't include any response to it. So I didn't know if you accidentally hit the "post reply" button before typing whatever you wanted to say.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry, but that doesn't look right to me: in my limited Tai Chi experience, including watching videos of Liang Shou-Yu and reading books (and watching videos) of Yang Jwing-Ming (and Ian Sinclair's video posted elsewhere, taijiquan practitioners don't hold onto the opponent for that long, nor do they follow him down that far. Rather, they tend to maintain as much of an upright, centered posture as possible by essentially pushing away, "bouncing" (peng), ejecting or repelling the opponent sooner than we see in that video. The contact time just looks too long to my eye: too much "hugging," not enough peng.

That doesn't mean that there are no throws in Tai Chi, just that I think that it's not normal to hang onto the opponent for that long.

But hey, it could be a Wudang style thing, and I'm biased towards Yang, Chen and Wu. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudang_t'ai_chi_ch'uan

some of it most certainly isn't, some is. But you are correct Taijiquan does not hold on that long and they don't follow them to the ground

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I should add that regardless of whether or not you think the Tai Chi forms contain double-legs, single-legs, and hip throws I do see plenty of techniques in the forms (arm drags, snap downs, hand fighting, redirects, sweeps, and off-balances) which would serve nicely to help set up double-legs, single-legs, and hip throws.

The soldiers may be there. Where are those generals?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I just asked because your post here: The truth on Self-Defense and TaijiQuan / Tai Chi Chuan just quotes my post but then doesn't include any response to it. So I didn't know if you accidentally hit the "post reply" button before typing whatever you wanted to say.

oh, I fixed that, I added response, you BJJ guys are just alway to quick

I hit post by accident, then edited it to add my response

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

You mean the point where Ramsey demonstrates a movement and then shows a solid application of how it can be applied in a fight? Yep, that is respect and appreciation. (His training partner is doing silly movements in the back to entertain himself, but he does that sort of thing all the time in their videos anyway.)

He's not just moving his arms, he's moving his feet and turning his hips to generate power. His stances aren't as deep and stylized as they would be in the form, but that's par for the course in just about any martial art which uses forms. The applications don't tend to be as exaggerated or stylized as the form practice.

I guarantee that I did not post that video to mock your post. I have respect for Tai Chi and I believe that Ramsey Dewey does as well. As I noted in another post, I still use snippets of the little bit of Tai Chi I've learned in my practice and if there was a local Tai Chi instructor who was actually proficient in the fighting applications of the art then I would probably take lessons from them.

Ya, ok... Well you see, I don't make claims against posts on BJJ as I don't have any background in that. The same applies to Taijutsu as well.
If I don't have any actual years of instruction and practicing real world self defense of a style, then I won't comment on it that I do. I also, would never take a video and post it on BJJ fourm an imply that: "this guy over here that practices Karate says that BJJ is really karate because he practices karate and one time took a BJJ class." - That what you Sir, are implying to me by your posts.

From all the video that I saw on Ramsey YouTube page, he is basically just mimicking hand and arm movements. You can't say it's Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) without the maintaining the the basic stepping, stances and over all movement of the style itself. And just because he may of said that he has a lot of respect for Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan).... Judging from his videos, him saying that is simply public facing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

taijiquan practitioners don't hold onto the opponent for that long, nor do they follow him down that far. Rather, they tend to maintain as much of an upright, centered posture as possible by essentially pushing away, "bouncing" (peng), ejecting or repelling the opponent sooner than we see in that video.

This is why I think Taiji principles are contradict to the wrestling principles.

Taiji makes assumption that their opponent won't grab on them. If A grabs on B, I don't believe B can push A back (since both bodies are connected as one).

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is why I think Taiji principles are contradict to the wrestling principles.

Taiji makes assumption that their opponent won't grab on them. If A grabs on B, I don't believe B can push A back (since both bodies are connected as one).

what do you think qinna is for? Or for that matter some of the applications for Step forward, Parry Block and Punch are for?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Some of that is not taijiquan, the follow to the ground is not by the way, some of it is. Around 1:50 things I see as Wu style show up in a over the shoulder throw and sweeps, but the actual applications in Wu tend to be a bit more violent. But I understand you don't want to hurt the guy you're training with. The hip throws however, I have not seen in taijiquan.

Look for any videos of Eddie Wu doing applications, he tends to slam people to the floor pretty hard. Also probably why part of the Wu family curriculum includes learning break-falls

some of it most certainly isn't, some is. But you are correct Taijiquan does not hold on that long and they don't follow them to the ground

Well apparently practitioners of this one school of Tai Chi at least, do hold on that long. Perhaps that's not typical in the larger Tai Chi community.

I don't see any "following to the ground" as that term would be used in Judo/BJJ/Sambo/wrestling. I do see several instances where the thrower goes out of their way to lower their partner gently to the ground. They probably wouldn't feel the need to do that if they spent more time on ukemi, but perhaps their instructor has an overly cautious approach to safety while practicing throws. I also see several instances where the thrower leans too far and too long when executing a single leg or double leg. I think that's just sloppy technique that they should work on correcting.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

This is why I think Taiji principles are contradict to the wrestling principles.

Taiji makes assumption that their opponent won't grab on them. If A grabs on B, I don't believe B can push A back (since both bodies are connected as one).

I'd be willing to bet that the whole "pushing someone away" aspect of Tai Chi has been blown way out of proportion as a side effect of practitioners who only do push hands in place of actual sparring or fighting. Most of the applications I can see in Tai Chi are not just aimed at pushing someone away.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Ya, ok... Well you see, I don't make claims against posts on BJJ as I don't have any background in that. The same applies to Taijutsu as well.
If I don't have any actual years of instruction and practicing real world self defense of a style, then I won't comment on it that I do. I also, would never take a video and post it on BJJ fourm an imply that: "this guy over here that practices Karate says that BJJ is really karate because he practices karate and one time took a BJJ class." - That what you Sir, are implying to me by your posts.

From all the video that I saw on Ramsey YouTube page, he is basically just mimicking hand and arm movements. You can't say it's Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) without the maintaining the the basic stepping, stances and over all movement of the style itself. And just because he may of said that he has a lot of respect for Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan).... Judging from his videos, him saying that is simply public facing.

Well, you don't have to think that Ramsey Dewey is a good Tai Chi practitioner. He probably wouldn't claim to be one himself. But the applications he showed do exist in Tai Chi and they are effective techniques that can work well in a fight even against high-level opponents. If you can come up with video of someone else showing those applications (or others), while maintaining more of what you consider to be correct Tai Chi footwork and stances, then I would love to watch them.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Taijiquan, at least what comes from Tung Ying Chieh and Cheng Manching and the Chen Family...all have a lot of Qinna, which is grabbing, also sweeps and takedowns. Wu family is big on takedowns and Sun style has Xingyi and Bagua in it and several joint locks and a sweep or to as well. There is a lot of stand up wrestling in virtually all Taijiquan forms

As for Wudang, if you look at what comes from Zhou Xuan Yun, there is a lot of stuff that will hurt you

This is the way I view it as well. We have multiple point contact as well as sweep, throw, strike, grab, etc. I don’t mean to argue with anyone on this point. I only practice James Wing Woos Yang Long form.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I should add that regardless of whether or not you think the Tai Chi forms contain double-legs, single-legs, and hip throws I do see plenty of techniques in the forms (arm drags, snap downs, hand fighting, redirects, sweeps, and off-balances) which would serve nicely to help set up double-legs, single-legs, and hip throws.

Arm drag is in it for sure. One of the first I learned. Grasping swallows tail?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This is why I think Taiji principles are contradict to the wrestling principles.

Taiji makes assumption that their opponent won't grab on them. If A grabs on B, I don't believe B can push A back (since both bodies are connected as one).

No disrespect intended but this thinking is too linear. No rule says one thing cannot change into another. Principles are just that. In these days, we don’t have to adhere to “this is this”.