The Straight Bladed Ninja Sword is awesome...

Cryozombie

Cryozombie

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Now that I got your attention, I have a sword question. :D

At a recent seminar Luke Molitor showed us some sword techniques from Togakure-ryu, along with a "specialty" sword used by the ryu with a normal sized tsuka, and saya, but a shorter blade.

Does anyone have the specs on the typical length of the blade/tsuka in relationship to a standard katana?

Thanks...
 
Define "standard katana."

Do you want me to get out my Togakure ryu sword and try to measure the blade?

And you should be aware that the guy that Hatsumi got to make the blade actually came out with two different sized tsuka. The first one seems to be more correct according to a Japanese shihan I trust on the matter. With it you can do kage no itto quite easily. The second time around, he had just done the Kukishin sword the year before with its longer tsuka. The sword that came out that year (which I have) has the same tsuka as the Kukishin sword and it makes kage no itto rather difficult.
 
Don Roley said:
Define "standard katana."

Do you want me to get out my Togakure ryu sword and try to measure the blade?

And you should be aware that the guy that Hatsumi got to make the blade actually came out with two different sized tsuka. The first one seems to be more correct according to a Japanese shihan I trust on the matter. With it you can do kage no itto quite easily. The second time around, he had just done the Kukishin sword the year before with its longer tsuka. The sword that came out that year (which I have) has the same tsuka as the Kukishin sword and it makes kage no itto rather difficult.
Click to expand...

Luke told us that there were no "set specs" for the Ninja-to. It was a very personalized weapon, but in general it had a 12-14" Tsuka, 21-23" blade, very long Sageo and a saya that would give the appearance of a 29" blade.

Don, if you have the info, I would love to have specs for the Shinden Fudo Ryu katana.

Markk Bush
 
Tengu6 said:
Don, if you have the info, I would love to have specs for the Shinden Fudo Ryu katana.
Click to expand...

About 80 centimeters for the blade, 30 or so for the tsuka. Very rough measurements by me.
 
hmmm... I thought it was said that the togakure ryu sword really didn't exist however was actually a broken sword picked up whereever and whenever it could for quick escape.

Being deaf has it's disadvantages so I could be totally wrong on this. But I do remember Luke mentioning that the togakure ryu sword was smaller due to a lot of the techniques being more of a "slash and run" type deal. At least that was what I "think" I read his lips say! :)

~Deaf~
 
Cryozombie said:
Now that I got your attention, I have a sword question. :D

At a recent seminar Luke Molitor showed us some sword techniques from Togakure-ryu, along with a "specialty" sword used by the ryu with a normal sized tsuka, and saya, but a shorter blade.

Does anyone have the specs on the typical length of the blade/tsuka in relationship to a standard katana?

Thanks...
Click to expand...

Several factors must be taken into consideration when discussing historically "common" or "typical" tsuka lengths of Nihon-to worn/carried by old samurai. They include 1) average physical size of adult male in Japan in the old days, 2) use of Nihon-to in military applications and bureaucratic rituals during specific eras, 3) national weapons laws issued by the ruling Shogunate, 4) political atmosphere of the specific eras, and 5) regional sub-cultures of daimyo's ruling territories (i.e, han).


sword of Snake Eyes
 
newtothe dark said:
Not an expert or anything just saw this and was wondering is this the style you are talking about? http://www.chenessinc.com/9260oniyuri.htm
Click to expand...

I have one of these, and yes some techniques and draws are difficult if held with the right hand up by the tsuka, but is much faster to draw than standard swords, and the longer handled version allows you to change your grip so that you have the same weapon length as an opponent armed with a more commonly dimensioned sword.

Personally though, I always find it difficult to imagine that hundreds or thousands of warriors from a particular ninja clan or ryuha would make themselves so easy to identify by carrying uniform weaponry. They might as well wear mons and carry nobori!

"Sir, we have an intruder with a sword of xxx-shaku and 9 hira shuriken in his jacket, 9 bo shuriken up his sleeves, and wearing shuko, .......etc"
 
Tanaka said:
Well they probably weren't always on intelligence missions. Ninja were also warriors.
Click to expand...

According to which sources? Because most of the info I got seems to indicate that any fighting skills where more geared towards survival and escape, instead of 'ride into battle for death and glory' kind of fighting.

I also read a quote by Hatsumi sensei, saying that if a ninja had to fight, he had already screwed up, and that fighting was the least important skill of the ninja. Another saying (which comes from Gikan ryu iirc) is 'Ni sente nashi', meaning something like 'from this side will the first attack not come'.

So defining them as warrior seems inaccurate because attacking and charging into battle seems not to have been their mo.
 
Bruno@MT said:
According to which sources? Because most of the info I got seems to indicate that any fighting skills where more geared towards survival and escape, instead of 'ride into battle for death and glory' kind of fighting.

I also read a quote by Hatsumi sensei, saying that if a ninja had to fight, he had already screwed up, and that fighting was the least important skill of the ninja. Another saying (which comes from Gikan ryu iirc) is 'Ni sente nashi', meaning something like 'from this side will the first attack not come'.

So defining them as warrior seems inaccurate because attacking and charging into battle seems not to have been their mo.
Click to expand...
As I understand Samurai of Koka have been in battle. Same with Iga. It's just that those Samurai also had special skills of "Ninjutsu" that they could lend in service. This is what evolved the "Ninja" concept.


"Ni sente nashi" < this doesn't make sense to me.
 
Tanaka said:
As I understand Samurai of Koka have been in battle. Same with Iga. It's just that those Samurai also had special skills of "Ninjutsu" that they could lend in service. This is what evolved the "Ninja" concept.
Click to expand...

Well, yes, but to call them warriors would be a stretch, as that word has some very specific meanings which did not typically apply to ninja.

Tanaka said:
"Ni sente nashi" < this doesn't make sense to me.
Click to expand...

See here for more info. Point 6.
If I understood it correctly, it refers to the idea that you don't strike or attack first. You wait for the other person to do that and respond. This is why our curriculum is built around the idea of 'evade / block / strike back' and 'escape'. This can also be seen in the kamae like ichimonji which are defensive and not offensive.
 
Bruno@MT said:
Well, yes, but to call them warriors would be a stretch, as that word has some very specific meanings which did not typically apply to ninja.



See here for more info. Point 6.
If I understood it correctly, it refers to the idea that you don't strike or attack first. You wait for the other person to do that and respond. This is why our curriculum is built around the idea of 'evade / block / strike back' and 'escape'. This can also be seen in the kamae like ichimonji which are defensive and not offensive.
Click to expand...
When being employed as Ninja; I would agree.

Also the sentence "ni sente nashi" doesn't make grammatical sense to me.
But I agree that your system represents what you said.
 
Tanaka said:
Also the sentence "ni sente nashi" doesn't make grammatical sense to me.
But I agree that your system represents what you said.
Click to expand...

Ah ok. I am still learning Japanese and I can't translate that sentence anyway. I just read that that was the translation. It is probably something that needs a surrounding / original context to make sense.
 
"OMG my ninja skills are needed urgently but I'm wearing my samurai outfit on and my samurai sword, what on earth am I to do?"

:jaw-dropping:
 
Tanaka said:
Also the sentence "ni sente nashi" doesn't make grammatical sense to me.
Click to expand...

&#12395;&#20808;&#25163;&#12394;&#12375;

&#20808;&#25163; means "first move", "initiative" or "first strike/attack"
it is true one would expect a subject before the particle &#12395;, but i'm afraid classical Japanese is even more reluctant to use a subject than modern Japanese, and that's saying something.

&#12394;&#12375; is just a classical form meaning as much as "without" or &#12394;&#12356;. , although it is not always written in kanji nowadays.

Oh and as for origins, i know for a fact that "karate ni sente nashi" was the credo of Funakoshi sensei, that would be shotokan karate. That's not to say it couldn't have been used by other ryuha prior to that, but i'm not at all sure about it being gikan ryu. Than again, I don't know much about gikan ryu as it is, so me not knowing it isn't really proving or disproving much of anything.

oh, and the Straight Bladed Ninja Sword is awesome...
 
Last edited:
The phrase (alternately worded "Bufu ni sente nashi") is attributed to Uryu Gikanbo, the first "official" Soke of Gikan Ryu Koppojutsu in 1558 (it was actually said to be founded by his teacher, Akimoto Kanai Moriyoshi, who was one of three important students of the 12th Soke of Gyokko Ryu, Sogyokkan Ritsushi). Uryu Hangan Gikanbo (the "Bo" was most likely a post-humous addition, a Buddhist tradition), also known as Uryujo, was famous for a number of things, including leaping skills (Hichojutsu), Senban Nage, and his very powerful punch, with which he was said to have once broken a sword in half.

Some confusion comes about with the 10th Soke also being known as Uryu Gikan, so the phrase could come from him as well. Gikan wa involved in the Battle of Tenchi Gumi, being wounded by a musket shot. He managed to get away from the battle, and was tended to by Ishitani Sensei, already Soke of Kukishinden Ryu and Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu, and when recovered, taught Ishitani the Gikan Ryu, with Ishitani becoming the next Soke of Gikan Ryu as well. He then taught Takamatsu, and then things get confusing....

Oh, and on topic of "Straight swords", Steve Hayes has put a blog about this very subject online at the moment: http://www.skhquest.com/2010/10/31/ninja-sword-non-controversy/

Of course, that could just start things off again.......
 
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