The "Sir" Aspect of TaeKwonDO

[lklawson]

It could have been worse.

To be honest, I wouldn't have viewed it as "worse" per se, but, instead, equivalent. Both are presumptions. "Nim" would have been presumptuous of an honorific that I have not agreed to. "Sabum" was presumptuous of an instructor-student relationship. It was, frankly, a tad insulting. Interestingly (to me anyhow) there are some historic contexts where such a presumption would have been the beginning of a Duel.

"Hello, I am Kirk."
"I am you teacher."
"Take our your sword and let's see if you have anything to 'teach' me."



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[JR 137]

I have never heard kaicho used in a dojo. It usually refers to a company president. Could be association president but you never refer to them as such. Photographs/pictures of people in dojo are of dead ones. They are printed in black and white. One does not put up pictures of live ones These photographs are hung or placed in what we would call shinzen. It is now called "shinden" as it has a religious implication of honouring the dead (like a shrine). So now we say "shinden ni rei", clap the hands twice and bow.

I did visit a dojo once and see a photograph of a living person. I bowed to offer my condolences.

Very interesting.

Not an argument, just observations...

Mas Oyama's picture was at every Kyokushin dojo shinzen while he was alive.

Kyokushin offshoots do the same, as far as I know.

Just googling "Kaicho," there are many karateka who use this title; the first 3 pages were all Japanese names except one. Tadashi Nakamura's name came up most.

Picking your brain a little bit...

Is kancho common? Mas Oyama was referred to as kancho while he was alive. And by Japanese people. I've seen several videos about him and Kyokushin in general, narrated in Japanese. I didn't understand much of anything, but I heard "Oyama Masutatsu Kancho" several times. I'm not sure if people called him kancho, or just referred to him as such. I never met him Nor saw him addressed directly as anything in any videos.

Oyama was later referred to as sosai. As above, not sure if he was directly called this or not. It also seems to me that he was referred to as kancho while he was alive, and sosai after his death. But that could be solely coincidental in the stuff I've read.

I'm starting to think Oyama broke away from mainstream stuff with Kyokushin. And his students kept those things when they broke away. I see the same stuff in the Kyokushin offshoots.

Last one...
What is the translation of soshu? Shigeru Oyama used this title when he formed World Oyama Karate.

Ok, a few more...
What is saiko shihan? I've seen that one too.
Sei shihan?
Shuseki shihan?

Sorry. I've googled them and haven't found any translations, just names.

 

[drop bear]

To be honest, I wouldn't have viewed it as "worse" per se, but, instead, equivalent. Both are presumptions. "Nim" would have been presumptuous of an honorific that I have not agreed to. "Sabum" was presumptuous of an instructor-student relationship. It was, frankly, a tad insulting. Interestingly (to me anyhow) there are some historic contexts where such a presumption would have been the beginning of a Duel.

"Hello, I am Kirk."
"I am you teacher."
"Take our your sword and let's see if you have anything to 'teach' me."



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I think you might be over thinking that.

 

[Hyoho]

As you say offshoots. People break away, set up and a new set of titles is born. Japanese are often looking for new words they can use with front and hidden meanings. But we dont see it in budo so much. More of an association thing.

Kancho is usually building or dojo head. Saiko usually refers to excellence or 'the best'. Not usually in a title. Sei would probably translate as 'living'. Shuseki would perhaps mean 'in attendance". I have heard the founder of a ryu being called Ryuso. Dont have the kanji but "best head"?

I know karate uses shihan a lot but in Japanese Koryu it can be a head of one particular school/ryu. For example TSKSR has family head that does not practice (Soke). The head teacher of all is the Shihan. So if there is no heriditary links shihan is a better alternative.

I know they like to give credit and acknowledge people for level and services but it all rather goes against the grain in trying to learn and extend some kind humility in what we do rather than aggrandisment and ego.

On occasion I have bowed into a dojo to see what I thought were two adults in their 40's doing free pactice so good that everybody watched in amazement and clapped at the end. (They dont wear belts). They take off bogu/practice armour and I see that the best of the two is in his 80s and a Kyu dan. That to me is a "sensei".

Just as a matter of interest some major Japanese budo are now quickly abolishing high grades. Maxed at Hachidan. If others follow suit it will make those in the West that purport to have such levels rather foolish.

Its a hard task. My teacher actually tried to abolish the title of Soke and have three menkyo kaiden. But it was met with fighting, ego and self importance. So he had to continue with just one head.

 

[lklawson]

I think you might be over thinking that.

Overthinking what? To say that in times past it would have been considered an insult worthy of starting a duel? That's not called overthinking that's called reading a history book.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But then their are things like the BJJ crowd using the term "Professor", which in Portuguese is, as I understand it, the right term. But in our culture that term has a very specific meaning.

I think the use of "Professor" in this context is mostly from native Brazilians. I've only been called Professor a couple of times and once was from a high-ranking Brazilian. Mostly I see BJJ instructors addressed by their first names, although I do frequently get called "coach".

 

[JR 137]

I think the use of "Professor" in this context is mostly from native Brazilians. I've only been called Professor a couple of times and once was from a high-ranking Brazilian. Mostly I see BJJ instructors addressed by their first names, although I do frequently get called "coach".

I've only seen professor used by Brazilian BJJers too. I haven't seen it used by American BJJers. Different cultures use different terms. Although I admittedly haven't been around very many BJJers.

Edit: What's the term for a BJJer?

 

[drop bear]

Overthinking what? To say that in times past it would have been considered an insult worthy of starting a duel? That's not called overthinking that's called reading a history book.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

So did you fight him then? To preserve your honor.

 

[drop bear]

I've only seen professor used by Brazilian BJJers too. I haven't seen it used by American BJJers. Different cultures use different terms. Although I admittedly haven't been around very many BJJers.

Edit: What's the term for a BJJer?

Jiujiteiro. but BJJer is better. Or ground krotty, combat hugger or butt flopper is also cool.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just as a matter of interest some major Japanese budo are now quickly abolishing high grades. Maxed at Hachidan. If others follow suit it will make those in the West that purport to have such levels rather foolish.

While I support the idea of reducing the number of ranks (I think the growth of number of ranks may have been tied to older feudal hierarchies, but that's just a guess), I don't think those who don't reduce theirs will look foolish. Their ranks simply won't have a reasonable equivalency, and that exists between associations and groups already.

 

[Balrog]

So, I am new to TaeKwonDo.
I am looking to have a mature and NON heated discussion on the aspect of saying "Sir" to everything and the tenets of respect for elders and parents....
I joined to build a confidence in my self defense abilities as a woman and citizen. I like the tenets about compassion, leadership, and indomitable spirit....I guess you could say I am hung up on my teacher talking about respecting your parents, elders, and teachers. My take on it seems like the class is asking for a blind respect..I say "sir" out of respect for my teacher as I am a student and I think all humans deserve a basic respect; but in my life there have been MANY teachers, and elders (and parent's of others) who I know that do NOT deserve reverence just because they are old, as they abuse the respect of children and have done awful things. I don't think it's a reason to quit TaeKwonDo obviously, but what do you all think about it?
I can't get behind the idea that all elders deserve a deep respect.. and my teacher talks about it a lot.

In most cases, you don't get to be old by being stupid.

With ATA, we say "respect for my juniors and seniors". Saying sir or ma'am is simple, basic courtesy to someone. My students respect me as their teacher and a high-ranking Black Belt. I respect them because I was once where they were and I know what their journey will be like.

 

[lklawson]

So did you fight him then? To preserve your honor.

Given that it wasn't 1695 London? No.

Which part of "historic contexts" are you having difficulty understanding? Should I use smaller words?

Don't be a dick.

 

[Ironbear24]

I know I am late to the thread but in most martial arts I've trained in, it is always sifu, or sensei. Even when I see them in public that is how I know them, though some have objected to being called that in public which I then call them Mr or Mrs whatever their last name is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I know I am late to the thread but in most martial arts I've trained in, it is always sifu, or sensei. Even when I see them in public that is how I know them, though some have objected to being called that in public which I then call them Mr or Mrs whatever their last name is.

I don't even like being called Mr. Seymour outside the dojo. It just sounds weird to me.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Jiujiteiro. but BJJer is better. Or ground krotty, combat hugger or butt flopper is also cool.

I'm a jiu-jiteiro with specialized skills in combat cuddling.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think the use of "Professor" in this context is mostly from native Brazilians. I've only been called Professor a couple of times and once was from a high-ranking Brazilian. Mostly I see BJJ instructors addressed by their first names, although I do frequently get called "coach".

I suppose I should update that I just visited a (non-Brazilian) friend's academy to teach a couple of classes and he introduced me as "Professor" each time. At least calling me "Professor Tony" rather than "Professor Dismukes" helped make it clear that I'm not an academic professor.

 

[Buka]

I suppose I should update that I just visited a (non-Brazilian) friend's academy to teach a couple of classes and he introduced me as "Professor" each time. At least calling me "Professor Tony" rather than "Professor Dismukes" helped make it clear that I'm not an academic professor.

It's such a pain in the butt when you visit a friend's dojo and are introduced by something other than what you happen to use. But what are you going to do? Depending on the situation, it's sometimes kind of bad form to correct him in front of his students.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It's such a pain in the butt when you visit a friend's dojo and are introduced by something other than what you happen to use. But what are you going to do? Depending on the situation, it's sometimes kind of bad form to correct him in front of his students.

As long as he doesn't call me "master", I won't complain about it.

 

[Buka]

As long as he doesn't call me "master", I won't complain about it.

Yeah, therein lies the rub. Some of my Karate friends do it a lot. Many of them, after forty odd years of "study", are "Masters" in their particular style. Which is fine with me, but we do not have that designation for any within my group. But they tend to introduce us as so.

Most of the time, after that first incident, I speak with them the next time and remind them I prefer "coach". Some times they actually listen. Whatever anyone wants to be called is fine with me.

I have no problem addressing anyone as Master, regardless of anything. [a few exceptions, of course]

 

[drop bear]

Given that it wasn't 1695 London? No.

Which part of "historic contexts" are you having difficulty understanding? Should I use smaller words?

Don't be a dick.

You were not insulted in a historical context. Maybe you were insulted due to a historical context?
Someone called themselves Sabum and they are not your Sabum or something.

I don't get the issue.