The Real Karazenpo

[marlon]

Some Grab Arts, free sparring, and Punch Counters (Mostly white belts)

Charles Gaylord and Walter Godin

thank you for these. I can see fairly clearly in the Gaylord and Godin stuff many close similarities with skk. I love the fast and furious finishes (signature of Prof. chow i think) that we do not see in skk so much...any more...

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[John Bishop]

To confuse things even more, these are supposed to be Karazenpo Katas 4, 3, 2, & 1. They look like CHA-3 katas.
These are students of Brad Namahoe, who started in CHA-3, then Kajukenbo, then Karazenpo.

 

[MarkC]

I used to know some CHA-3 guys many years ago, and they did something that looked very much like this.

 

[RevIV]

To confuse things even more, these are supposed to be Karazenpo Katas 4, 3, 2, & 1. They look like CHA-3 katas.
These are students of Brad Namahoe, who started in CHA-3, then Kajukenbo, then Karazenpo.

those seem to be more Kajukenbo

 

[14 Kempo]

those seem to be more Kajukenbo

I thought the same, I definately saw parts of the Palama Sets in there. But then again, it all has the same root.

 

[DavidCC]

So where's all the SKK people today?

I would have thought this would get SOME reaction. We're just a little midwest school but ...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65882

 

[LawDog]

:cheers::cheers:

 

[14 Kempo]

So where's all the SKK people today?

I would have thought this would get SOME reaction. We're just a little midwest school but ...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65882

Tried to PM you, David, but your inbox is full!!!

Congratulations!

 

[DavidCC]

Tried to PM you, David, but your inbox is full!!!

Congratulations!

Yah got a bit of traffic lately

s/b clear now, and I'll make sure you can email me thru the site as well. I look forward to hearing from you.

-D

 

[marlon]

Master Bishop,
if i were to drop the 6 pinans i teach and replace them with kajukenbo forms, which ones would you suggest that would best serve sk students?

\
respectfully,
Marlon

 

[John Bishop]

Master Bishop,

Thanks for the sign of respect, but I like being called John around here.

if i were to drop the 6 pinans i teach and replace them with kajukenbo forms, which ones would you suggest that would best serve sk students?

\
respectfully,
Marlon

If I'm understanding the SKK curriculum right, your Pinans are actually similar to the Okinawan/Japanese Pinans/Heians? And your numbered "katas" are similar to the Karazenpo "Pinans"?
If this is true, your "Pinans" are good training tools for teaching the basics to students at the beginning and intermediate levels. That's why variations of these katas are practiced by most of the major Okinawan and Japanese systems.

With intermediate to advanced students ,I personally don't spend a lot of time teaching katas, and just about none teaching application. I will explain what the techniques are, and point them out when they appear in various "punch counters", "grab arts" etc. But I prefer working techniques with a partner, and live training via sparring and grappling.
I do feel that katas serve a purpose in teaching beginning to intermediate students basics. And they also help improve movement, balance, and co-ordination. Those things that should be developed before any live training takes place.

The 14 Kajukenbo katas were developed in 3 phases. There were originally 8 katas. Then 9, 10, 11, and 12 were added. The last two katas were #13, and 14. Those schools who know the history of the 14 katas, know that 13 and 14 were added to be beginners forms. So they teach 14 first, and some teach 13 second. The are numbered 13 and 14 because that was the order they were added to the system.
#14 is a expansion of the drill called the "clock dance". (I know there's a lot of disagreement as to whether kenpo has Okinawan or Japanese roots. But most of the old time Hawaiians believe that it came from Okinawa, and that is why they sometimes call katas "dances", "monkey dances", etc. A whole other topic.)

I would not be comfortable telling anyone one what katas they should adopt from Kajukenbo. Or even suggesting they adopt any of our katas. But I will list the Kajukenbo katas that I would keep if I was asked to only teach 6.

Palama Set 14 is a very good beginners kata.
It teaches stepping in and out at angles (we use the numbers on the clock to denote the angle, instead of 45 degrees, 90 degrees ext. Hence "clock dance").
It teaches forward and backward stepping.
It teaches the "horse", "forward", "kneeling", and "cat" stance.
It teaches the "up", "outward", "bent wrist", and "inward" blocks. It teaches the "front snap" and "front thrust" kicks, and also the lunge punch.

Palama Set 1 is again a good beginners kata. It teaches "outward", "downward", "inward", and "X" blocks. Introduces students to "hand strikes" combined with "checks", and also "elbow" strikes.

I like Palama Set 4 because it teaches simultaneous blocking and striking, with a emphasis on developing hand speed.
This kata is practiced in a stationary horse stance. The goal is after the sequence of techniques is learned, to do it faster and faster. With good form of course.

Palama Set 8 helps develop good kicks, balance, and strong legs. We really don't do jumping kicks in any of our self defense combinations. But practicing them in this kata, and line work helps develop leg strength and explosive speed off the line.

Palama Set 9 has some of the Chinese influence of the system. Nice usage of open hand techniques in the form of palm strikes, grabs, and chops.

Palama Set 11 (Dance of Death) is a variation of "Naihanchi Shodan", the main form taught in the Mitose and Chow schools. It is also the form performed at Kajukenbo/Hawaiian Kenpo funerals. So it has some historical significance.

 

[marlon]

And, i have naihanchi kata from soke Cuevas. Thank you John,
i appreciate many many of the points in your response. I am still deciding and discussing it with my teacher. A few years ago i learn 13 and 14 from Costa, in that order and i have learned 3 of Prof.Kimo's katas which look very much like some of the kaju katas you shared with us. I very much appreciate the break down you offered. I like the pinians so i may keep them however, it does seem more apporpriate to use the beginner forms that are more in line with SK and since Shihan is the inheritor of Prof. kimo's system and our roots are from Prof.Chow...it seems a logical move.
thanks for sharing

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[KENPOJOE]

In another thread regarding a recent seminar with GM Gascon, Danjo made this comment:

"I've seen Brad and Mike do their stuff, as well as their students. If that's original Karazenpo, then there IS no original Karazenpo. I was hoping that someone had actually seen Sonny demonstrate something. Like I said, thanks anyway."

The part that caught my eye was what I underlined. Now, I no longer train in the SKK methods, and my experience with the SKK system was limited to Brown Belt, so my question is...What is the original Karazenpo, if there is in fact something original and how different is what Gascon teaches compared to what is seen in the Villari schools?

Hi folks!
I saw this post on another thread and thought I'd address it here first.
I, for one, have seen Sijo Gascon move and have been taught techniques by him. I have also seen him demonstrate techniques on others [Prof. Rash and others]. I have seen him demonstrate techniques that are a direct correlation to kenpo karate/Shaolin Kempo techniques that I was taught in the past, as well as direct correllation to certain American Kenpo techniques i've learned as well. I have placed video clips on youtube to confirm that.
I can personally assure you,danjo, and anyone else that Victor Gascon still has a good grasp of the style he created. He is simply happy that people are still carrying on the art of of his lineage in some form and/or fashion. That is the wonderful positive message he brings with him everywhere he goes.
There is obviously an "Original" Karazenpo Goshinjutsu, just as there was an "original" kajukenbo or American Kenpo. However, in many cases, it was improved upon over time.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
Massachusetts co-vice president
Karazenpo Goshinjutsu

 

[KENPOJOE]

You made my point for me in a round about way. Pesare said that he had four forms and a few combinations from Gascon when he left for RI. The rest, was his invention with significant additions by Cerio, Villari etc. When Gascon came "out of retirement" he gave a seminar where the only thing he demonstrated was breakfalls. When asked to show some "Original" Karazenpo techniques, he replied, "It's all Karazenpo" which to me is just another way of saying that there is no Karazenpo. Or, it could be a way of saying, "Heck it's been over 20 years since I taught anything, and I don't remember, so we'll just go with what you guys are doing now and call it Karazenpo." The question has never been definitively answered and everything that I have seen Brad or Mike do was either Kajukenbo or SKK. A manual of the "Original" techniques was supposed to be published back in 2006 by the KGSBBS, but bupkis has come out and now they don't even have that announcement on their websites.

As to the Kaju example you gave, take a look at the original method. It doesn't look like the styles that it came from. If Gascon just re-named what Kajukenbo he had "Karazenpo" then he invented nada. I can call a Smith and Wesson a Colt all day, but it's still a Smith and Wesson.

Hi folks!
Dear Mr. Weston,
I was reading your post and a few interesting points came to mind:
1. You state "When asked to show some "Original" Karazenpo techniques, he replied, "It's all Karazenpo" which to me is just another way of saying that there is no Karazenpo. Or, it could be a way of saying, "Heck it's been over 20 years since I taught anything, and I don't remember, so we'll just go with what you guys are doing now and call it Karazenpo."
If i were to follow your logic on this point,then you state that if Adriano Emerado was to watch a demo of CHA3,Kakenbo,Chuanfa,Tumpai, & wun hop kuen do & He [Emerado] stated "It's all Kajukenbo" according to your logic, there would be no kajukenbo?
If someone, rather, had said, as I did, "Sijo, if we demonstrate some of our material for you, would you be so kind as to stop us when you see something familiar so that we can gain from your knowledge?", then, if he TRUSTED you, because as you are well aware, there are many naysayers who have nothing good to say and never give a positive comment on a particular subject [HINT!]Then he would definitely be leary [rhymes with geary] to share information with them.
I'm sure that over the passage of time some information may have been forgotten,however, if you eneter with a positive attitude and an open mind, information will be shared. I'm sure there were times in sijo emperado's life where he got sick of the negativity in his own style and just didn't want to deal with you guys at times.
Things change,people change. Projects are passed to others and take time to be correctly written down and elaborated upon in print. I have started a series of short instructional video clips on youtube to give some insight into the karazenpo goshinjutsu art and it's influences. I light a candle rather than curse the darkness.
As far as your comment about Karazenpo not looking like kajukenbo, it must be hard to see the forest with all those TREES in the way.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[John Bishop]

I think some of the difficulty in communication here is the blurring of the lines between shaolin kempo and karazenpo.

The "Sijo" (is that a real word?) of Shaolin kempo is Fred Villari. he made it up based on everything he knew at the time. Does some of it resemble Cerio's Kenpo? yes. Does Cerios kenpo resemble Pesare's kenpo? Yes. Does Pesare's kempo resemble karazenpo? That seems to be the Danjo's question here.

It seems to me that karazenpo (today) is an organization, not a style. Was it a style at some time? Yes, I think so, but Sonny Gascon's lineage did not continue, except for Pesare, who was completely out of contact with Gascon for many, many years. Corrigan 'found' Gascon and 'used' him as a lightning rod to draw together the fragmented groups that came from Pesare, Cerio, Villari, & Mattera - unsuccessfully, mostly. Sonny Gascon is just a nice old Hawaiian dude who used to teach kajukenbo until his cousins started squeezing him for the vig - 40 years later I think he was surprised that anyone even knew his name, and now he's so happy to be so much more than just a retired mechanic. Ohana!

"It's good to have you back braddah. But where you been the last 30 years?" Ted Tabura to Sonny Gascon

To do any in depth research into the Karazenpo history, you have to look at So. Calif. during the 60's. What happened to the early students after Gascon quit teaching? And who are the current leaders in the organization?
When Gascon quit teaching he only had a handful of students (5-10). Those who stayed in the martial arts like Julian Generalao, joined Kajukenbo schools and learned and taught Kajukenbo. Julian (aka General, Prof. Blue) trained with Allen Abad, Gary Forbach, and others in the San Diego area. He taught Kajukenbo, and his black belts who started schools taught Kajukenbo. One being his nephew, Al Cablay. After getting his black belt, Al trained with me off and on, until he moved out of the area.
When Gascon came out of retirement, Generalao rejoined him and was given a high rank. He has passed away recently.
Now look at today's organization.
If you think Mike Rash's techniques look like SKK, your absolutely right. But it's not because that's the "Original Karazenpo". Rash was a shorin ryu black belt who joined the Villari organization here in So. Cal. and trained under Bill Mailman. Before he joined Gascon, he ran a SKK branch school under Mailman in Anaheim, Ca.
If you think Brad Namahoe's techniques look like Kajukenbo, your right. Brad trained in Hawaii under Rudy Orlando, a CHA-3 black belt. In the early 90's, Orlando joined the Kajukenbo organization and Brad did also. Brad went up to 6th degree under Orlando. About 4-5 years ago Brad join the Karazenpo organization and was promoted to 7th degree.
When Sonny Gascon goes on seminar tours, these are the 2 guys he takes. Now nobody is saying that these 2 gentlemen are not good martial artists. To the contrary,they are very knowledgeable martial artists. But the question is; are they teaching the "Original Karazenpo"? And that is the topic of this thread.

 

[Danjo]

Hi folks!
Dear Mr. Weston,
I was reading your post and a few interesting points came to mind:
1. You state "When asked to show some "Original" Karazenpo techniques, he replied, "It's all Karazenpo" which to me is just another way of saying that there is no Karazenpo. Or, it could be a way of saying, "Heck it's been over 20 years since I taught anything, and I don't remember, so we'll just go with what you guys are doing now and call it Karazenpo."
If i were to follow your logic on this point,then you state that if Adriano Emerado was to watch a demo of CHA3,Kakenbo,Chuanfa,Tumpai, & wun hop kuen do & He [Emerado] stated "It's all Kajukenbo" according to your logic, there would be no kajukenbo?
If someone, rather, had said, as I did, "Sijo, if we demonstrate some of our material for you, would you be so kind as to stop us when you see something familiar so that we can gain from your knowledge?", then, if he TRUSTED you, because as you are well aware, there are many naysayers who have nothing good to say and never give a positive comment on a particular subject [HINT!]Then he would definitely be leary [rhymes with geary] to share information with them.
I'm sure that over the passage of time some information may have been forgotten,however, if you eneter with a positive attitude and an open mind, information will be shared. I'm sure there were times in sijo emperado's life where he got sick of the negativity in his own style and just didn't want to deal with you guys at times.
Things change,people change. Projects are passed to others and take time to be correctly written down and elaborated upon in print. I have started a series of short instructional video clips on youtube to give some insight into the karazenpo goshinjutsu art and it's influences. I light a candle rather than curse the darkness.
As far as your comment about Karazenpo not looking like kajukenbo, it must be hard to see the forest with all those TREES in the way.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

Well, 1) You haven't confirmed anything via video unless I missed where Gascon was shown demonstrating something. 2) The context of the quote I was told was when Gascon was demonstrating breakfalls and was asked to show Karazenpo moves. He said, "It's all karazenpo" so it wasn't in the context that you're suggesting.

I'm saying that "Seeing is believing" and you're saying "In order to see, you must first believe". Sorry, but I've drank enough Koolaid over the years.

 

[Danjo]

BTW, Here's a still/vidcap (one of many) of Sijo Emperado demonstrating Kajukenbo. He's not shy like Gascon seems to be. I've got video of him demonstrating from a wheelchair also. Not even feebleness can stop him from teaching and sharing. where's the footage of Sonny Gas?

 

[The Kai]

Thank you for clearing up a mystery, I was taught Pinan 1 by the name of Karaumpha!!

 

[marlon]

John Bishop,
what do you view as the difference btwn what was taught by Prof.Chow and what was taught by Sijo Emparado?

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[John Bishop]

John Bishop,
what do you view as the difference btwn what was taught by Prof.Chow and what was taught by Sijo Emparado?

Respectfully,
Marlon

Short answer:

From what Sijo Emperado has told me, during the time he trained with Prof. Chow, he was primarily teaching "kenpo jiu jutsu", pretty much the same as James Mitose. It was practiced like Okinawan karate: makiwara training, linear blocks, single powerful punches. He (Prof. Chow) also liked to teach judo quite a bit. (Yea I know, there are some people who never met Prof. Chow who proclaim that the Prof. never taught judo or katas.)

As taught by Emperado, Kajukenbo uses jujitsu or judo in about 65-75% of our self defense techniques. We also use the gunting and limb destruction techniques from escrima.
In addition to the "octagonal" stepping patterns common in Hawaiian Kenpo, we also use the triangle stepping patterns from escrima, along with western boxing punches and parries.
Many of the old timers refer to Kajukenbo as a "snap punching/snap kicking system". We prefer "snapping" techniques over "thrusting" techniques because they lend themselves better to the multiple striking/kicking standing and ground combinations we use. They also make it harder for a grappler to "catch" your technique and take you down.