The Real Karazenpo

[MJS]

In another thread regarding a recent seminar with GM Gascon, Danjo made this comment:

"I've seen Brad and Mike do their stuff, as well as their students. If that's original Karazenpo, then there IS no original Karazenpo. I was hoping that someone had actually seen Sonny demonstrate something. Like I said, thanks anyway."

The part that caught my eye was what I underlined. Now, I no longer train in the SKK methods, and my experience with the SKK system was limited to Brown Belt, so my question is...What is the original Karazenpo, if there is in fact something original and how different is what Gascon teaches compared to what is seen in the Villari schools?

 

[RevIV]

Danjo,
I do not get this comment. There has to be an original Karazenpo -- even if it is just a remanipulation of Kaju. There are only so many ways a body can move, so does this mean there is no original Kaju because the system came from already pre-existing styles? I do not believe so myself, I think when the founders put things together they made it theirs, just like Gascon. If i had only one chance to win a million dollars and say who does the original Karazenpo then the answer would be SGM Pesare. Prof. Rash is now a student of Sijo Gascon but his forms are very USSD.

 

[JTKenpo]

Danjo,
I do not get this comment. There has to be an original Karazenpo -- even if it is just a remanipulation of Kaju. There are only so many ways a body can move, so does this mean there is no original Kaju because the system came from already pre-existing styles? I do not believe so myself, I think when the founders put things together they made it theirs, just like Gascon. If i had only one chance to win a million dollars and say who does the original Karazenpo then the answer would be SGM Pesare. Prof. Rash is now a student of Sijo Gascon but his forms are very USSD.

Do we really want to waste our time trying to convince someone about something they have already made their mind up about? Have we ever seen a positive post that helps or educates us from this person or has it just been put downs and sarcasm? nuff said for me

 

[Danjo]

Danjo,
I do not get this comment. There has to be an original Karazenpo -- even if it is just a remanipulation of Kaju. There are only so many ways a body can move, so does this mean there is no original Kaju because the system came from already pre-existing styles? I do not believe so myself, I think when the founders put things together they made it theirs, just like Gascon. If i had only one chance to win a million dollars and say who does the original Karazenpo then the answer would be SGM Pesare. Prof. Rash is now a student of Sijo Gascon but his forms are very USSD.

You made my point for me in a round about way. Pesare said that he had four forms and a few combinations from Gascon when he left for RI. The rest, was his invention with significant additions by Cerio, Villari etc. When Gascon came "out of retirement" he gave a seminar where the only thing he demonstrated was breakfalls. When asked to show some "Original" Karazenpo techniques, he replied, "It's all Karazenpo" which to me is just another way of saying that there is no Karazenpo. Or, it could be a way of saying, "Heck it's been over 20 years since I taught anything, and I don't remember, so we'll just go with what you guys are doing now and call it Karazenpo." The question has never been definitively answered and everything that I have seen Brad or Mike do was either Kajukenbo or SKK. A manual of the "Original" techniques was supposed to be published back in 2006 by the KGSBBS, but bupkis has come out and now they don't even have that announcement on their websites.

As to the Kaju example you gave, take a look at the original method. It doesn't look like the styles that it came from. If Gascon just re-named what Kajukenbo he had "Karazenpo" then he invented nada. I can call a Smith and Wesson a Colt all day, but it's still a Smith and Wesson.

 

[DavidCC]

I don't know if it is accurate to call Mike Rash a student of Gascon's since Gascon is retired and not teaching. Seems to be more of an employee than a student.


""Heck it's been over 20 years since I taught anything, and I don't remember, so we'll just go with what you guys are doing now and call it Karazenpo."

yeah that sounds about right...

 

[Danjo]

Do we really want to waste our time trying to convince someone about something they have already made their mind up about? Have we ever seen a positive post that helps or educates us from this person or has it just been put downs and sarcasm? nuff said for me

To convince someone, you have to have a convincing argument. Otherwise, you're just telling them to drink kool-aid.

Who are you BTW? Your profile is more than a bit sparse on info.

Edit: Nevermind I found your website.

 

[JTKenpo]

To convince someone, you have to have a convincing argument. Otherwise, you're just telling them to drink kool-aid.

Who are you BTW? Your profile is more than a bit sparse on info.

Chalk up my first response to being a grump *** this morning, not enough coffee, but it really doesn't matter. Who am I, fair enough question, Kenpo student first, teacher second. My base is in SKK and AK thats what you are looking for right?

 

[Danjo]

Chalk up my first response to being a grump *** this morning, not enough coffee, but it really doesn't matter. Who am I, fair enough question, Kenpo student first, teacher second. My base is in SKK and AK thats what you are looking for right?

Like I said in my edit above, I went to your website. Thanks for the reply.

 

[RevIV]

the ball started rolling with someone, if the forms and a few of the combo's came from Gascon originally then he created the begining.

 

[Danjo]

the ball started rolling with someone, if the forms and a few of the combo's came from Gascon originally then he created the begining.

Unless they weren't original forms. Or, if Pesare changed them to something entirely different.

 

[RevIV]

Unless they weren't original forms. Or, if Pesare changed them to something entirely different.

According to SGM Pesare he teaches the original four pinans (katas) exactly as they were taught to him by Gascon. Unless you can prove to me differently then I will then go with the fact that the original 4 katas were created by Gascon.

 

[Danjo]

According to SGM Pesare he teaches the original four pinans (katas) exactly as they were taught to him by Gascon. Unless you can prove to me differently then I will then go with the fact that the original 4 katas were created by Gascon.

Which 4 are those? I was told that he totally changed Kata's 1-4. Are they the same as 1-4 in SKK?

 

[marlon]

According to SGM Pesare he teaches the original four pinans (katas) exactly as they were taught to him by Gascon. Unless you can prove to me differently then I will then go with the fact that the original 4 katas were created by Gascon.

Jesse, this road with Danjo will just leave you frustrated, trust me. He has his opinion and it is different from ours and the best thing is to leave it at that, he has had some unpleasant experiences with SK that have stayed with him

respectfully,
marlon

 

[Danjo]

Jesse, this road with Danjo will just leave you frustrated, trust me. He has his opinion and it is different from ours and the best thing is to leave it at that, he has had some unpleasant experiences with SK that have stayed with him

respectfully,
marlon

That is an argumentative fallacy called and "Ad Hominim" attack. It means that rather than answer the questions, you attack the questioner. In this case, you say that he shouldn't answer the question because you feel that I have unresolved unpleasant experiences with SKK. It seems that the shortest route would be to answer the questions and refute any fallacious assertions that I may have indavertantly made with facts.

 

[RevIV]

Which 4 are those? I was told that he totally changed Kata's 1-4. Are they the same as 1-4 in SKK?

They are kata's 1-4 in the SKK but not really. The essence is there but there were def. changes made by students of SGM Pesare. Prof. Cerio on down. 5-7 were creations of Pesare - 4 down came from Gascon.
Jesse

 

[RevIV]

Jesse, this road with Danjo will just leave you frustrated, trust me. He has his opinion and it is different from ours and the best thing is to leave it at that, he has had some unpleasant experiences with SK that have stayed with him

respectfully,
marlon

I know where Danjo is coming from. I am very secure on how i learned my Kempo and wish Dan had a similiar experience but he did not. I have seen Dan's post for years and will try not to get baited. Dan, I will answer questions on what i know, if you know or believe you know an answer to one of your questions then just say it instead of asking the question.

 

[marlon]

That is an argumentative fallacy called and "Ad Hominim" attack. It means that rather than answer the questions, you attack the questioner. In this case, you say that he shouldn't answer the question because you feel that I have unresolved unpleasant experiences with SKK. It seems that the shortest route would be to answer the questions and refute any fallacious assertions that I may have indavertantly made with facts.

for the record been there done that with you Danjo. I am glad you are enjoying your kajukenbo instruction

marlon

 

[DavidCC]

Which 4 are those? I was told that he totally changed Kata's 1-4. Are they the same as 1-4 in SKK?

Told by who? Why do you believe they were correct?

 

[Danjo]

Told by who? Why do you believe they were correct?

Joe Shuras said that Pesare had changed the forms and combo's and showed his high ranking black belts the original way they were performed once in a workout. I don't know why he'd lie about that.

My point is that if the forms SKK does now have been altered by Pesare, then they're not what Gascon taught. If Gascon taught Kajukenbo forms to Pesare, then they are Kajukenbo, not Karazenpo even if he changed the names of them. If Gascon is not teaching the "Original" Karazenpo anymore because he doesn't remember it. Then the only record we WOULD have of Karazenpo are the forms and combos he taught Pesare.

Now, even if those four forms are still basically the same as taught to Pesare, and the combinations can be re-constructed, then we have a very small existing curriculum for Karazenpo. Four forms and a handfull of combinations don't really give much material for an entire system that has so many highly ranked black belts and representatives.

 

[Jdokan]

Which 4 are those? I was told that he totally changed Kata's 1-4. Are they the same as 1-4 in SKK?

Danjo Have you seen both sets of these forms ( I guess if they were truely different than my question becomes mute...)? I'd be interested in your take....As a West Coast Guy you seem to have better opportunity to witness some of our "older" (sorry guys) MA's....