the problem with the steves...

[Sam]

I wanted to ask everyone's advice on a problem that I've encountered in sparring class.

Steve sr is an instructor at my school, and steve jr is his 14 year old son. steve jr's instructor is not his father.

However, since steve sr is an instructor he also participates in sparring classes, which his son attends. Which means that sr is usually coaching jr.

I spar steve jr often and we're a pretty good match for each other. Both of us usually hold our own pretty well against higher belt ranks, but I guess the way we spar clashes well because we both have difficulty fighting each other. Or at least we used to, I've sort of figured him out a bit and have been scoring on steve jr consistently the past month or so.

His father who coaches him from the sidelines gets angry with steve jr when he fails to listen to his directions. He tells him to come in with his hands because I've apparently got a 'scary' lead leg and I can out kick him. When he tries to crane I usually just put my leg over his anyway. His father tells him to move around and come with his hands.

The problem is, when his father yells this, I know exactly what he is going to do. I mean, his father just yelled it across the room. So I know how to react. Steve jr doesnt have to seem a problem scoring on anyone else besides me (dont I feel special) but his father gets angry with him when he spars me and I feel bad. Part of me just wants to let him score to get his dad to back down. I don't see how a martial art can be any fun with your father constantly yelling at you from the sidelines.

But on the other hand, I feel like I'm cheating him whenever I leave myself open to let him attack. And cheating myself as well. It's not doing him any favors - if he's in tournament and his opponent fights similarly to me he'll be out of luck if I've been making mistakes purposefully just to get his father off his back.

It's not my place to get involved in their relationship, but I feel bad being the cause of tension between them and also feel bad letting him score on me just to get his father off his back.

I don't know what I am supposed to do, I don't want to be the cause of him quitting because his father sucked all the fun out of it.

 

[rupton]

I wanted to ask everyone's advice on a problem that I've encountered in sparring class.

Steve sr is an instructor at my school, and steve jr is his 14 year old son. steve jr's instructor is not his father.

However, since steve sr is an instructor he also participates in sparring classes, which his son attends. Which means that sr is usually coaching jr.

So are your sparring sessions open and not a part of the formal class? I ask because I would be suprised that the Sensei overseeing this would allow this go on in a formal portion of the class.

I spar steve jr often and we're a pretty good match for each other. Both of us usually hold our own pretty well against higher belt ranks, but I guess the way we spar clashes well because we both have difficulty fighting each other. Or at least we used to, I've sort of figured him out a bit and have been scoring on steve jr consistently the past month or so.

His father who coaches him from the sidelines gets angry with steve jr when he fails to listen to his directions. He tells him to come in with his hands because I've apparently got a 'scary' lead leg and I can out kick him. When he tries to crane I usually just put my leg over his anyway. His father tells him to move around and come with his hands.

The problem is, when his father yells this, I know exactly what he is going to do. I mean, his father just yelled it across the room.

That's laugh out loud funny!!!!!

So I know how to react. Steve jr doesnt have to seem a problem scoring on anyone else besides me (dont I feel special) but his father gets angry with him when he spars me and I feel bad. Part of me just wants to let him score to get his dad to back down. I don't see how a martial art can be any fun with your father constantly yelling at you from the sidelines.

I can testitfy that it isnt', but as you mention below you really aren't doing yourself or him any favors by letting up or giving him the opportunity to hit you. Sure, it may appease his father for the moment but until Steve jr. learns to deal with the real issue he's only impowering his father to continue this behavior at a different time and possibly venue. Who knows it may even become worse.

But on the other hand, I feel like I'm cheating him whenever I leave myself open to let him attack. And cheating myself as well. It's not doing him any favors - if he's in tournament and his opponent fights similarly to me he'll be out of luck if I've been making mistakes purposefully just to get his father off his back.

I think getting beat in a tournament is the least of his problems as I mentioned above

It's not my place to get involved in their relationship, but I feel bad being the cause of tension between them and also feel bad letting him score on me just to get his father off his back.

Without knowing the details other than what you've provided and from my own personaly experience I would say you are only one of many causes of tension between them. If it wasn't you it would probably be something else so I wouldn't sweat that too much.

I don't know what I am supposed to do, I don't want to be the cause of him quitting because his father sucked all the fun out of it.

It sounds like Dad has some issues and maybe maturing that needs to happen. I am a yudansha and my son just started training as a white belt, my Sensei has been nice enough to let me attend the beginers class with him before I take the advanced class right after. I can tell you as a parent it's hard to watch your kid take knocks, make mistakes, get disciplined, do push-ups etc., but you have to sit back and become a disinterested observer. When I see a more advanced child hit my son with a technique sometimes my first instinct is to chide the other practitioner but I know I can't do that because my son will never learn or achieve on his own if I take that approach. Also it's not the other students fault in most cases, just my son being a bone head, not focusing, etc. It sounds like Sr. may have to realize a few of those things. Another thought, and then I'll stop since I'm getting long typeded with this. Maybe dad is a little embarrassed by the fact that jr can hold his own with higher belts (as you mentioned) and not a member of the same rank. Also do you think your gender might be an issue? Haven't a clue, only you can answer that

 

[Knarfan]

Hi Sam,

First of all , you are not the cause of his tension , his dad is . I think you should stick to what you do best & let nature take it's course . Family is family , I would let them work it out . When your talking about a relationship between a young man & his father this type of thing is going to happen . The emotions take over between dad & the boy . If anything I think that the person who is in the best position to help the situation is steve jr's instructor . If he does it tactfully he may be able to help . If I were you I would stick to the game plan & keep using that scary lead leg ! :btg:

:yinyang:

 

[Shu2jack]

You could talk to the head instructor of your school about the problem and let him handle it. This may be an issue between father and son, but it is starting to effect your training and it is not fair to you. If nothing else, request that you don't spar that kid anymore. If you want to still spar him, ask your instructor to enforce a "no coaching" rule in the school.

 

[sifu Adams]

I don't let parents (students or not) yell during any class of mine. that aside, why dont you help him. I tell my students all the time, If you are pulling a move off on your opponet or they are pulling something off on you take the time to ask or show them why you can pull it off. ( dont take it wrong. I don't tell everything I know) Sometime it could help him understand what his dad is yelling at him.

 

[Sam]

sifu adams, his dad is correct in what he is yelling. His information is correct, its just the manner in which he is trying to teach it to his son thats bothersome - hearing it from me too I think would only be more stressful to him - I'd be echoing his father.

also, his father isnt just another student - he is an instructor at the school.

I dont think I want to talk to any of the instructors about it... that might just be pouring salt in the wounds.

Really I think my only option is to let him win, at least when his father is looking, until he learns what it is that he is doing incorrectly. If I was to talk to an instructor about it, they might put an end to it - but I am positive that his father would just wait til they left the studio to yell at him. which might make the problem worse.

 

[sifu Adams]

I guess I wasn't clear enough. Let me try a diffent way. Maybe he don't understand what his father is yelling. I would do something like this:

Father: "Keep your Arms Up...."
Me: (as I am still sparing) "he's talking about your left arm, your droping it allowing me get that roundhouse in...."

Something like that. I use this approch when I am trying to fix something my black belt instructors are teaching something that the student dosen't understand or maybe the showed it a little differnt than I would show it. this way I don't wont to discredit the my instructor. I still think you might wont to think of a way to help him learn then his dad wont yell so much and you don't have to let him win.

 

[dsp921]

My initial thought on this would be to approach it from your point of view. Don't focus so much on how the Steve's are acting and what it all means to them. Sparring is a good way to sharpen reflexes and get accustomed to blocking an unknown attack and countering. Steve Sr. yelling instructions to his son while you are sparring him takes that away from you. You aren't getting all you should be getting out of the time you spend sparring, if you know the attack before it comes what good is it to you as far a learning to deal with things on the fly? I don't know your relationship with Steve Sr. or your instructor, but at least now if you approach someone about the situation, you are just expressing concern about your training and it doesn't look like you are getting involved with what goes on between Sr and Jr. Does that make any sense? It does to me, but it's still early...
Oh yeah, letting him win does neither of you any good....

 

[Satori]

I had this problem in a BJJ club I trained at. While not related, there was a big, strong kid who was the instructors "favorite". He was about 4" taller than me, about 30 lbs heavier, and had been training in BJJ for quite some time. He also didn't understand that you're supposed to "work" with less experienced players, and not outright dominate them.

I was smaller and had less grappling experience, but for some reason the instructor kept coaching his "Favorite" when we'd roll. Even though the kid would dominate me most of the time, if I ever got an advantage the instructor was all over it. During my last class, we grappled for about 45 minutes. For about 40 minutes I was humiliated, but I managed to get the advantage and gain the back ONCE! However...the instructor IMMEDIATELY hopped in like a wrestling coach and helped the kid get out.

The issue I had here was the same as yours, in that the instructors are acting inappropriately during class. Such blatant favoritism is horrid and ufair, since every student works hard and pays dues. Why would Mr. Steve Instructor feel justified in coaching his son over coaching both of you??? Why can't he give advice to his son, then shout advice to you??

For an instructor to blatantly favor a student is ridiculous and unfair. As such, Mr. Steve Instructor is acting ridiculous and unfair, and should be confronted about it.

May you achieve
Satori

 

[Flatlander]

Really I think my only option is to let him win, at least when his father is looking, until he learns what it is that he is doing incorrectly.

I see 3 problems here, Sam:

1) Sparring isn't about winning or losing; its about learning.
2) Because of this, the right thing to do is try to learn, not try to win, or "let someone win." Just do your best.
3) It is not your responsibility to see that Steve Jr. learns anything. Remember, the best way to learn something and retain it is the hard way.
4) How will Jr. learn anything from you going easy on him? Do you believe this would make him a better martial artist? If so, you may be missing the point....

OK, 4 problems.

 

[rutherford]

Sam, are you sure you aren't projecting some of your feelings about your own father? I'm asking, because I don't know anything about this situation beyond what you've said and I'm doing some projecting of my own. We all do it, it's natural.

Fathers can get angry and yell without it causing tension in their relationship with their children. Does he call the kid names, or otherwise put the kid down? If dad's just frustrated, I wouldn't worry about the kid.

If it's considered acceptable conduct for sparring class, then fine. Boxing corners frequently yell advice during matches. If the advice is correct, it doesn't matter if you hear it and know what's coming. You should still get hit.

What I'm most concerned about is the thought that you might be getting distracted by these sorts of thoughts during sparring. You've got much better things to be doing, and a much different state of mind you need to be in. Start thinking of these events as good training for you to be able to clear your mind of distractions.

Don't you dare let the kid win because it helps you feel better. If he figures it out, he's unlikely to be friendly to you for your attempted help.

 

[Grenadier]

This is a rather ambiguous situation.

If Steve Sr. is acting just as an instructor, and offering helpful comments on improving Steve Jr.'s fighting methods, then there's no real harm done.

However, if Steve Sr. is allowing his familial ties to influence his statements, then this is probably not a good thing. It's easier said than done, but in that dojo, as an instructor, even if you are a parent to one of the students, you should treat them as you would with any other student. Sometimes, it's nigh impossible to stay neutral in such matters.

In this case, it seems as if Steve Sr. is acting more as a parent, and not so much as an instructor. Parents are naturally protective of their own kids, but during classes, they should refrain from any parenting. There's also the old adage of "familiarity breeds contempt."

You are not doing anything wrong. Since you and Steve Jr. are approximately on equal standings, it's simply up to you to do your part, and up to Steve Jr. to do his part. If it just happens to be that your fighting methds and talents make you the winner most of the time, then it's up to Steve Jr. to raise his own abilities.

Now, if Steve Jr. were someone of significantly lesser strength (as an opponent), then it could certainly at times, be your duty to help him develop and give him a target, but in this situation, it is clearly not the case.

If the problem persists to the point where it is affecting your training, then you really should have a word with the chief instructor. If all goes well, the chief instructor will just have a few well-placed, friendly words with Steve Sr., and remind him that a sensei is a teacher, and not a parent, when teaching. This isn't too uncommon, since we're all only human, and those that are parents can find this a most difficult thing to remember.

 

[rutherford]

. . . if Steve Sr. is allowing his familial ties to influence his statements, then this is probably not a good thing. It's easier said than done, but in that dojo, as an instructor, even if you are a parent to one of the students, you should treat them as you would with any other student. Sometimes, it's nigh impossible to stay neutral in such matters.

I assume that during Sparring Class Steve Sr. is a student - if an advanced one who offers guidance to those lower - and that another instructor is running the show. Is that correct?

If I am right, then it seems like responsibility is quite a bit different. You should still hold yourself to high standards of conduct, but you're not really obligated to treat your son like just another student as you should if you're actually teaching class.

This is a rather ambiguous situation.

Agreed.

 

[rupton]

If I am right, then it seems like responsibility is quite a bit different. You should still hold yourself to high standards of conduct, but you're not really obligated to treat your son like just another student as you should if you're actually teaching class.
Agreed.

I would like to disagree Rutherford. If it's not my Dojo or they're not my junior students who look up to me as their teacher and mentor than no, no special obligation and I totally agree with you. If however these are the same students that I must lead then I am setting a confussing, if not bad example. Also I think I would be invalidating myself a little bit in their eyes as their mentor. As I mentioned, in my Dojo people know that the white belt at the end of the line is my son, they also know that I don't give him special treatment as a result. His peers look at him exactly as that: a peer, not someone different because he's a yudansha's son. But this is subjective since the word obligated means different things to different people I guess

 

[DavidCC]

I would at least tell Jr. "I hear your dad's instructions too so I always know what you are going to do..." and let him and his dad work with that.

 

[rutherford]

I would like to disagree Rutherford.

I'm not sure that you did. All I mean (with the part you quoted) is that if it's not my class, I'm not obligated to give tips to every student who is sparring. In fact, doing so is probably poor etiquette - it's not my class, some of the students may be my senior in rank, etc.

How your behavior reflects on you and how you set an example for your students is a completely seperate issue.

 

[rupton]

I'm not sure that you did. All I mean (with the part you quoted) is that if it's not my class, I'm not obligated to give tips to every student who is sparring. In fact, doing so is probably poor etiquette - it's not my class, some of the students may be my senior in rank, etc.

Ah yes, and you're right I don't disgree with that ;-)

 

[Knarfan]

Hi Sam,

I think that you just have to let it go & train . Forget the drama , your letting that kid win because you think it's going to ultimatally help him is the same thing Steve sr is doing when he is yelling advice . To me it seems like You & his dad are sparring your both presuming you know whats best for Steve jr . If your problem is with Steve sr you need to either talk to a senior instructor or look Steve sr in the eyes & tell him what the problem is . Make sure that you let him know that your serious & determined to fix the problem . It's not your place to presume what is best for Steve jr . Your his sparring partner & training partner , keep it simple . Your heart is in the right place & it sounds like you are the only one that wants to fix the situation ? So fix it , don't put a band aid on it ! You have evidently earned Steve sr respect with your sparring abitlities, now it's time he knows who you are as a person . Personally it sounds like it may be a gender issue , I don't know .

 

[arnisador]

I think sayoc FF has given some good advice, though I'm less sure that it's a gender issue. It's always tough when there's an issue like this. My son and I train at the same local school where I outrank him. The instructor usually keeps us separate unless it's just a simple drill. I agree with this! I also train my son in Modern Arnis at home, which is different. There it's just the two of us.

 

[dsp921]

I still think that it should be addressed by Samantha from a standpoint that there is an issue with her training. I feel everyone would be more receptive to her concerns if they were about her training and not so much trying to determine what is best for Jr. Maybe it's just me, but I know that if the situation were brought to me both ways I would talk to Sr. about impeding Sam's learning during sparring, but I would most likely just tell her not to worry about Jr. if it were discussed as what's best for him. Could be it's just me...