The Point in Forms

[J-kid]

At the moment i am cross training at 2 gyms one teachs a form of Judo Jujitsu Wrestling/boxing the second teachs karate( which i just joined for to inprove my kicking. My question what the are Forms for they look funny and i dont see the need for them. I mean if it is for fighting what part. I would love to see someone try doing that to me ., can you say knock out for them , Give me your input thanks much.

Cya in a few years in UFC fights

 

[Kempojujutsu]

There are several threads in the karate forum. Maybe you should go there to find out. It sounds like you have been watching to much karate kid. The forms you mention ( called kata's in Okinawa karate) have alot of self defense techniques in them. Without knowing what type of "karate" it is hard to explain. Most of the TKD forms are just to teach basic techniques. Okinawa kata's and Chinese forms teach mostly self defense. These were used for solo training tools.
Bob:asian:

 

[fist of fury]

They can serve the same purpose as shadow boxing.

 

[Cthulhu]

I'll say this again:

If you can't see the benefit of forms, you've either never actually trained with them, or never trained with them correctly.

Cthulhu

 

[karatekid1975]

I agree, Cth. I love forms for the vast knowledge in them.

I have a question, Judo-kid. There isn't forms in Judo?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Forms server many uses.
- coordination - in many cases they show you some of the logiclal progressions from 1 technique to another.
- shadow boxing - many forms are done with the idea that you are sparing an imaginary attacker(s).
- Basic traits - Kenpos short 1 is an example of this...its all blocks.

Theres a ton of good information you can pull from seing and doing forms. Its not -everything- but is 1 part of the options available to you in your training.

:asian:

 

[Dronak]

Yes, this does sound like something that was brought up somewhere else around here. I seem to recall seeing it before. Didn't someone else say that the forms are like a catalog of moves? They provide a simple way to teach and practice a variety of things. It's a way to preserve the moves of the art. No one ever said you have to do all of them in a fight or in the form's exact order. But they provide a vehicle for passing the art on to new students. As I understand it, and Kaith mentioned, they're also generally arranged to imitate a fight sequence. Every move in the form has its applications if you can see them, some are fairly obvious, some are more hidden and require some thought to figure out. Kaith's point about coordination and basic traits are good, too. I believe the tan tui routines we do serve a similar purpose although I don't have many details about them. They can be useful just for practicing the moves over and over. For example, the Yang tai chi form we're learning has the Peng, Lu, Ji, An (Ward off, Rollback, Press, Push) combination performed like 8 times in this long form. Why? Because they are a few of the most basic moves in the style and by repeating them so many times in the form, you get more practice at peforming them. It's certainly true as Kaith said that forms aren't everything in your training. However, they can be an important part of it. Cthulhu's probably right, too, that if you don't see the benefit of forms you haven't trained them (properly). As a beginner, I'm sure I don't see all the points in our forms, but I do see some of them and our teacher points out some of them. I would imagine that at this stage he's more interested in us learning the moves than worry too much about the point behind every single one. I suspect more about the point of the moves in the form will come later for us.

 

[Rob_Broad]

I think the Judo-Kid should do more reading here to see if there are any topics related to what he wants to know instead of just asking the questions straight out. I am not trying to be rude or mean but there are several threads on the value of forms.

 

[sweeper]

I would suggest asking your karate instructor.. if his answer isn't very good maybe it's time for a new karate instructor.

 

[Master of Blades]

Hes almost as bad as me :asian:

 

[J-kid]

Have you been in a fight with someone that kickboxed befor or another MA. If i were to punch at someone with horse stance the karate way i would get punched right in the face. without a good guard you will get hurt. If you dont believe me fight a boxer with karate and no kicks see how long you last

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I guest you having be taught what a horse stands is for. I am surprise since you do judo. Have you done a standing arm bar look at the stands you are in. from a grappling aspect when in the guard what are you doing, a modified verison of a horse stand.
Bob:asian:

 

[J-kid]

Thats not really horse stance at all

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

Have you been in a fight with someone that kickboxed befor or another MA. If i were to punch at someone with horse stance the karate way i would get punched right in the face. without a good guard you will get hurt. If you dont believe me fight a boxer with karate and no kicks see how long you last

Forms are forms- freestyle is freestyle - techniques are techniques and Isolation training is just that. Provided the person you are studying under is not a fake everything has a place. Should not be over emphasized or ignored. If you are competition oriented an art that focuses on self defense is not a wise choice for you. There are conflicting ideas...

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Bob

 

[J-kid]

Well since i have sparred 5-6 green belts or higher that just do tkd kempo etc they have bad punchs , first thing i do is run in close and box with them they get hit start moving back to try kicking and i rush in for the take down. Like i said if you dont wanna believe me on this one challeng a boxer to a boxing match and use your karate etc

GO for it just dont get mad at me when you get hurt

 

[sweeper]

karatekid1975 I don't think his judo coach teaches any forms, not sure if judo has forms or not though.

 

[Dronak]

You may be right, sweeper, I don't know. What I'm wondering is what Judo-kid's posted sparring experience has to do with the original question about usefulness of forms. I don't really see what it has to do with the original subject.

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

Well since i have sparred 5-6 green belts or higher that just do tkd kempo etc they have bad punchs , first thing i do is run in close and box with them they get hit start moving back to try kicking and i rush in for the take down. Like i said if you dont wanna believe me on this one challeng a boxer to a boxing match and use your karate etc

GO for it just dont get mad at me when you get hurt

Where at in WA do you train and who is your judo coach? Not olympic judo is it?

 

[J-kid]

Yeah it is why do you say that/