The official "Bujinkan use of ASP" thread

Don Roley

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Kreth said:
Is it legal to bring an ASP into Japan?

Well, I am very careful about staying within the law when I bring things into Japan. Anything that is illeagle in Japan, like certain cold medicines you can get over the counter in America, should be left at home.

But I have bought a copy of the ASP in a toy store here in Japan. They are sold openly without any sort of registration that I have run across. The rules for carrying them around are that they can't be out in the open and ready for use unless you have a certificate and a need to do so. So only security guards really could carry them ready. The rest of us have to carry them in cases just like we do bokkens and rokushakubo.

And at Narita they ask you the typical questions about fruits and such. But the only weapons they ask you if you have are firearms and swords. I don't see a reason to declare them at all. Once you are in the country, use common sense and keep them in your training bag and you should be ok.

Brian, thanks for the offer of the seminar. But I would not mind showing stuff to someone like yourself of Nimravus so that you could get more out of training with Nagase and have my mistakes corrected. I don't like the idea of going overseas and teaching it there. For one thing, I am not qualified by ASP. I know some of the legalities, but there are probably gaps. If I teach someone who is qualified they will know what to drop do to the legal reality. But that might not be the case in an overseas seminar.

Thanks anyway.

Oh, and yes Dale I do remember that freaking dirk. It was fun to see and hold, because I knew it would be you who got in trouble if it was found.
 
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On legal usage - no pommel/closed strikes allowed.
On pressure points - useless on substance abusers.
 

Don Roley

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Nimravus said:
On legal usage - no pommel/closed strikes allowed.

Now that I did not know. And it sounds really weird. If someone tries to grab you before you can deploy the weapon and extend it, what the hell do they expect you to do?
 
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Grey Eyed Bandit

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They probably expect me to "call for backup" from my uniformed counterparts...anyway, I've still got two arms and legs.
 

Don Roley

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Nimravus said:
On legal usage - no pommel/closed strikes allowed.

Getting back to this for a second....

For those qualified on the ASP in the states, is this the case as well? And I realize that it may change from state to state and department to department.

And for Nimravus- if you can't use the pommel of the thing, can you still poke with the other end? Can you use the pommel if the stick is extended i.e.- close in grappling and you can't swing it?
 

shesulsa

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Don Roley said:
Getting back to this for a second....

Nimravus said:
On legal usage - no pommel/closed strikes allowed.

For those qualified on the ASP in the states, is this the case as well? And I realize that it may change from state to state and department to department.

I'm 90% certain that in Washington State you are allowed closed strikes applied to the same locations as open/extended and in a thrusting manner as well. Unless something has changed that I'm not aware of, I'm fairly certain.
 
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Don Roley said:
if you can't use the pommel of the thing, can you still poke with the other end?

Probably, but thrusting is (officially) recommended against, in favor of swings.

Don Roley said:
Can you use the pommel if the stick is extended i.e.- close in grappling and you can't swing it?

I'll get back to you in early september when I've finished my certification course.
 

Don Roley

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One more thing you might look into.

Nagase is very, very big on hitting with just the last part of the stick. The closer to the edge, the more impact you get. Just hitting with the knob on the end dumps all the power of the swing into a very small area. What is the policy of hitting with as little of the stick hitting as possible?

After all the rules you have told us, I wonder if they expect you to use the thing as nothing more than a fashion statement. :enguard:
 
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No sweat. We were taught to hit with the last part when undergoing training for the baton I currently carry (which ironically is way more dangerous than an expandable...).
 

Don Roley

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Where are you taught to grasp the ASP? My Bujinkan training kind of leads me to grasp up toward the part where it expands from. Kind of like you would grasp a wakazashi. But FMA guys I know grab their stuff towards the opposite end for more leverage. I think that ASP teaches like how I do it, but I would like to ask someone who is actually certified.
 
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Don Roley said:
But FMA guys I know grab their stuff towards the opposite end for more leverage.

That's just Serrada as far as I know.
The course I'm going to attend is scheduled for september third and fourth.
 
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Looks like the course is going to be postponed for two weeks. They need at least eight attendants and we're currently only five. In any case, when it's all said and done I'll be able to carry handcuffs as well.
 

mdamignani

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I was recently certified in the use of the extendable baton.
Don, the way you described holding the ASP is the exact way I was taught through the use of force cource that was part of my law and security program.
As for the best way to carry the baton, find the most comfortable position and always wear it in exactly the same way everytime.
The reason for this is: you will always know where it is and will not have to think about it. If you are always moving the location of the weapon, you may reach for it and it won't be there when you need it.
Matthew Damignani
 

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On legal usage - no pommel/closed strikes allowed.
On pressure points - useless on substance abusers.

Just re-reading this thread, and noticed this.

That may be a state-specific law, or an agency policy. In my state, I can use the ASP or any other expandable baton in closed position. I can even use the pommel to strike; I just have to be able to justify and explain my actions. I can use the closed ASP to apply pressure point control, for example, or to strike at the ulnar nerve to get someone to release a steering wheel. Works very, very well...

One big functional concern with any friction lock (but not some of the others with a mechanical lock like Monadnock's Autolock Baton) is that you can't really thrust with it open... It's likely to close, if the small diameter of the tip doesn't cause more of an injury than you want.

(Now... Can anyone explain why I'm allowed to bash someone with a metal tube but not with a plastic flashlight without tapdancing through the "instinctive response to a sudden threat..." game?)
 

jks9199

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Where are you taught to grasp the ASP? My Bujinkan training kind of leads me to grasp up toward the part where it expands from. Kind of like you would grasp a wakazashi. But FMA guys I know grab their stuff towards the opposite end for more leverage. I think that ASP teaches like how I do it, but I would like to ask someone who is actually certified.
When I was trained on the ASP, they didn't fine-tune too much about grip. I'm more comfortable with at least a fist-width behind my hand if the stick is big enough; I can use that space for a lot of different things, as I'm sure y'all can, too. Also, if you grab a stick as low as I've seen some FMA types do, I can't help but suspect you're going to lose it if you hit something fairly solid...
 

Brian R. VanCise

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When I was trained on the ASP, they didn't fine-tune too much about grip. I'm more comfortable with at least a fist-width behind my hand if the stick is big enough; I can use that space for a lot of different things, as I'm sure y'all can, too. Also, if you grab a stick as low as I've seen some FMA types do, I can't help but suspect you're going to lose it if you hit something fairly solid...

Losing a stick from impact is always a possibility no matter where your grip is. A lot of Filipino practitioners (but not all) prefer a thumb length grip or half a hand from the bottom. This is similar to how you describe your grip above. Definately using that extra length for hitting or trapping is a big plus!
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jks9199

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Losing a stick from impact is always a possibility no matter where your grip is. A lot of Filipino practitioners (but not all) prefer a thumb length grip or half a hand from the bottom. This is similar to how you describe your grip above. Definately using that extra length for hitting or trapping is a big plus!
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I've been taught to hold a stick with a minimum of a fist width from the end on any stick... and a minimum of 3 fingers and a thumb for the grip. I've seen some Filipino practioners who seem to hold a stick at impact points with a very loose, index finger/thumb grip. Hey... I was once taught a police baton technique similar to that, and it could make a very solid hit thanks to the speed. It can work... I just prefer a tighter grip.

And I know that any time you hit something, you can lose your grip. For many years, my system's chief instructor's favorite target for stick training was a suspended log. We learned to protect our faces from bounce back...and to expect sticks to drop sometimes.:uhohh: Of course -- people who dropped their sticks became the target of merciless jokes...
 

Brian R. VanCise

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I've been taught to hold a stick with a minimum of a fist width from the end on any stick... and a minimum of 3 fingers and a thumb for the grip. I've seen some Filipino practioners who seem to hold a stick at impact points with a very loose, index finger/thumb grip. Hey... I was once taught a police baton technique similar to that, and it could make a very solid hit thanks to the speed. It can work... I just prefer a tighter grip.

And I know that any time you hit something, you can lose your grip. For many years, my system's chief instructor's favorite target for stick training was a suspended log. We learned to protect our faces from bounce back...and to expect sticks to drop sometimes.:uhohh: Of course -- people who dropped their sticks became the target of merciless jokes...

I do not think there is much differance to what we are talking about. I prefer having some stick length after my grip as well. If the stick is the length of a police baton then you would probably leave more on the end and as the stick shotens well then your grip would come closer to the end as well. (therefore you can get that tip swinging faster) Personally for me I like having a good length after my grip to strike with and also to use for manipulation or trap with.
 

Don Roley

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Question,
Does anyone like Brian who uses the baton and have Bujinkan training find themselves going into two handed grips in the middle of movements?

It just seems natural to me when doing what some people call the roof block. My left hand is under the baton so it does not get slammed into my face and it is right there to grab the end of the handle if it is not needed to do things like stick my fingers in someone's eyes, do musha dori, etc. The amount of time to go from a roof block to a kesa giri type of strike from the right seems a hell of a lot faster.
 
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