The luck aggression principle

Christopher Adamchek

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Concept ive been playing with and how ive been explaining it to students.
The concept comes from watching numerous live self-defense where
A - someone tries to do a correct thing, but lacks confidence and aggression and fails
B - or someone does unsafe defenses but with so much counter aggression that they succeed

Hence the luck aggression principle
Where a threshold of aggression is required for good technique to actually work but is less than 100% aggression
However if you output 100% aggression on every move you make you get a "luck token" where you chances of success (regardless of skill or safety) are about 80% and once you burn out and no longer output 100% aggression you can no longer afford the "luck token" and it can even flip on you
Emphasizing good skill and safety with appropriate aggression is key!
 

skribs

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Concept ive been playing with and how ive been explaining it to students.
The concept comes from watching numerous live self-defense where
A - someone tries to do a correct thing, but lacks confidence and aggression and fails
B - or someone does unsafe defenses but with so much counter aggression that they succeed
I think there's a couple of things here. My BJJ professor has a 60/40 principle. 60% technique, 40% strength. Since technique multiplies strength, you need to apply your strength or else the technique does nothing. Similarly, one thing I've noticed in my own rolling as a white belt is that if I hesitate, it often allows my opponents to escape. A higher-level practitioner can find pauses without as much trouble (because they have better application of the principles), but while I'm trying to figure out if I want to go left or go right, my opponent has time to find an opening and capitalize on it.

On the other hand, why does aggression work? Let's take a boxer as an example. Proper technique is going to be to return your hands to your guard position after each punch is thrown. You throw a jab, and your right hand is protecting your face. When you throw a cross, the left hand returns straight to the guard position. You don't want to have a point in time where your left hand is dropped and your face is completely open. This will protect you from counter-attacks.

Yet, you will see plenty of times in MMA and in boxing where folks just flip that switch and start swinging like a gorilla, and it often works. It is not 100% proper technique. But when their opponent is on their back foot, 100% proper technique isn't necessarily needed. If that counter-punch isn't coming, then what's the purpose of defending against it? It's wasted energy at that point.

In a self-defense encounter, there's a very good chance your opponent is untrained. Trained people tend to get out their aggression in class and don't need to pick fights outside. They earn their "cred" in sanctioned bouts that improve their record, instead of in unsanctioned fights that nobody else cares about. Chances are much less they'll know the proper technique and timing of a counter-punch. Or in BJJ, that they'll know the basics of defending against pretty much anything you throw at them.
Hence the luck aggression principle
Where a threshold of aggression is required for good technique to actually work but is less than 100% aggression
However if you output 100% aggression on every move you make you get a "luck token" where you chances of success (regardless of skill or safety) are about 80% and once you burn out and no longer output 100% aggression you can no longer afford the "luck token" and it can even flip on you
Emphasizing good skill and safety with appropriate aggression is key!
Is this for a board game? You had me with the premise, but lost me here.
 
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Christopher Adamchek

Christopher Adamchek

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@skribs
i like the 60/40 idea!
not for a board game, just an analogy for explaining the principle
reminding students that they are still "buying" luck
 

skribs

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not for a board game, just an analogy for explaining the principle
reminding students that they are still "buying" luck
Maybe just the way you worded it, then. Because it really read like you were explaining the "luck token" mechanic in a board game.

I wouldn't even necessarily call it luck. It's more like guesswork for beginners, and reactions for advanced students. Let's use my boxing example from above:
  • A beginner is likely to drop their hands between punches because they have not yet built up the proper habit, and it's not even something they do on purpose
  • An intermediate student is likely to drop their hands between punches when they are tired, but is also likely to try and find the moment to flip that switch to go beast mode. They may go into that mode too early and get caught being greedy, or they may stay in that mode for too long without being able to seal the deal, and the opponent can recover and counter. Or, they may go into that mode too late and the opponent has already recovered, and is able to counter.
  • Someone with more experience will have a much better understanding of when to switch over to pure aggression and how long to stay there. They will recognize it faster and make the decision to flip that switch much faster.
There are pros and cons to everything. Being aggressive creates more openings, but also requires a minimum ability to capitalize on those openings. That ability is a combination of skill and position. A good fighter on their back foot or a bad fighter in general will struggle against aggression. A good fighter in a balanced position will excel against it, because the aggression gives them an opening.
 

GojuTommy

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You can get lucky while being aggressive, but against someone who has no experience fighting, simply being aggressive will be enough but i wouldnt call that itself luck.
 

GojuTommy

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For example years ago one of my students just walked forward windmilling and he hit the other student several times by doing that in sparring.
We stopped him and corrected him and explained why that **** doesnt fly, but in that case it worked because the other kid wasnt aggressive.

Was that lucky? I guess if you look at it from the perspective that hes lucky the other kid was so timid, then yes it was lucky.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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For example years ago one of my students just walked forward windmilling and he hit the other student several times by doing that in sparring. ... Was that lucky?
That's not lucky. That's called machine gun strategy. You shot out a lot of bullets and hope one of your bullets can hit your opponent.

The praying mantis system has forms designed for that training.

 

Jared Traveler

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Learning how to apply the technique with aggression in a dojo, does not mean it will be applied with an appropriate level of aggression in a self-defense situation. There are reasons people fail to bring aggression in a real encounter.

Teaching that means you need to understand the phycology of why people soft ball their techniques in a real encounter.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Aggression has nothing to do with luck. As long as you can put your opponent in defense mode, your opponent is not thinking about attacking you. That's your advantage. It's better for your fists to be close to your opponent's head than the other way around.

IMO, self-defense is to force your opponent to defense himself.

The striking art can be as simple as a groin kick followed by a face punch.



The aggressive attitude such as to "act like a tiger and eat your opponent alive" is a very important spirit in the Chinese wrestling system.

 
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skribs

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For example years ago one of my students just walked forward windmilling and he hit the other student several times by doing that in sparring.
We stopped him and corrected him and explained why that **** doesnt fly, but in that case it worked because the other kid wasnt aggressive.

Was that lucky? I guess if you look at it from the perspective that hes lucky the other kid was so timid, then yes it was lucky.
In my experience with Taekwondo, a lot of beginners (which I also assume translates to "inexperienced folk out in the wild") will treat sparring like a turn-based game. My opponent kicks, then I kick, then my opponent kicks, then I kick. However, if the opponent does a combination, then their turn ends when the combination ends. If my opponent does 5 kicks in combination, then their turn is 5 kicks, after which I have an opportunity to go.

That's one barrier a lot of students have to get past, is that just because your opponent is kicking, it doesn't mean you can't. You can trade shots, you can counter-kick, or you can find other ways to interrupt your opponent's combination.

I think the same thing worked here. It worked because the other kid was waiting for an opening instead of making an opening. And that crap won't fly when he learns it doesn't work.
 

GojuTommy

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That's not lucky. That's called machine gun strategy. You shot out a lot of bullets and hope one of your bullets can hit your opponent.

The praying mantis system has forms designed for that training.

Spray and pray is like definition of luck
 

GojuTommy

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Learning how to apply the technique with aggression in a dojo, does not mean it will be applied with an appropriate level of aggression in a self-defense situation. There are reasons people fail to bring aggression in a real encounter.

Teaching that means you need to understand the phycology of why people soft ball their techniques in a real encounter.
For most people its simply pressure both physical and psychological. This is another reason why competing can help prepare someone to defend themselves.
 

GojuTommy

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Aggression has nothing to do with luck. As long as you can put your opponent in defense mode, your opponent is not thinking about attacking you. That's your advantage. It's better for your fists to be close to your opponent's head than the other way around.

IMO, self-defense is to force your opponent to defense himself.

The striking art can be as simple as a groin kick followed by a face punch.



The aggressive attitude such as to "act like a tiger and eat your opponent alive" is a very important spirit in the Chinese wrestling system.

The bit about putting someone on the defense so they arent thinking about attacking may or not be true depending on who youre defending yourself from as that comes down to their ability to keep their cool and actually avoid being punched in the face.
 

Holmejr

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My opinion of course.
Controlled explosive aggression. Whether its a boxer exhaling with his punches, a karate kiai or a tennis players loud yell just before impact, its all controlled explosive aggression. This aggression counters fear freeze, betters breathing and betters focus. All this, plus well trained techniques puts more emphasis on skill than on luck. If there is luck it will prob reveal itself because of dedicated training and skill.

Im humorously picturing the full metal jacket scene where Joker is made to show his battle scream.
 

Jared Traveler

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For most people its simply pressure both physical and psychological. This is another reason why competing can help prepare someone to defend themselves.
Also, and this is extremely important, they need to know with certainty that they are acting legally and morally correct. This is easy to do in a sports situation, but mich harder to do in a self-defense situation. It takes sweating the details legally and morally before an incident.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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This is easy to do in a sports situation, but mich harder to do in a self-defense situation.
The skill that you have developed through sport, you hope that you never have to use it.

A: Why do you train iron plam for?
B: So I can use my palm strike to hurt people.
A: How many people have you hurt so far?
B: ...
 

Oily Dragon

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The bit about putting someone on the defense so they arent thinking about attacking may or not be true depending on who youre defending yourself from as that comes down to their ability to keep their cool and actually avoid being punched in the face.
Sometimes defense is the only option.
 

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