The left handed swordsman

[Aiki Lee]

So for the most part in japanese swordsman ship the right hand is the hop hand near the tsuba and the left hand is at the bottom of the tsuka and it never seems to be reversed. Does anyone know the reason for this, was it just the way it was done or is there some functional reason why the right hand always needs to be the top one on the grip?

 

[Sanke]

Hi Himura,

It was basically just because that's how it was. In feudal Japan, if you were right handed, your right was on top, if you were left handed, you weren't It was just how their society worked, individualism wasn't (and to an extent, still isn't) very highly valued when compared to here in the west. As for functional reasons, I'm not really sure. I don't THINK there's many practical reasons why you couldn't hold a Japanese sword in a left hand grip, but it simply isn't done.
The biggest reason I can think as to why it wouldn't be done is that it would take a lot of extra time and effort to devise a sword system for both a right and left handed grips, and that one left handed student would require much more attention and time for training, which doesn't really work with the whole group mentality thing.

I'm sure someone else can go into more detail, but that's pretty much how I understand it

 

[Sukerkin]

The simplistic answer is that there were/are no left handed swordsman in JSA. If you are left-handed, then you have to overcome that disadvantage to learn how to use your right hand as your dominant one when wielding a sword. The feudal Japanese had never heard of political correctness and inclusiveness :lol:.

A more practical answer for the way the hands lie on the hilt is that, for right handed people, counter-intuitively, it is your left hand that is the strong one and your right hand that is the more 'delicate' one when it comes to fine control. The left hand provides the horse-power for a cut whilst the right hand guides it. So, as a sword is, at its most basic, a sharp-edged lever, you put the power hand as far down the 'lever' as you can. Indeed some schools even have a grip where the little finger of the left hand is tucked under the end of the tsuka (handle) to put the 'power' finger (primarily the ring finger) as close to the end as possible.

 

[Sanke]

Indeed some schools even have a grip where the little finger of the left hand is tucked under the end of the tsuka (handle) to put the 'power' finger (primarily the ring finger) as close to the end as possible.

Interesting, I wasn't aware that was one of the reasons for that particular grip. Thanks for that!

 

[Ken Morgan]

(Chris should pounce on this one....)

All cuts in iaido are essentially one handed cuts, the left hand comes on at the last second to help provide power to the cut. A cut is also an arc, as the sword is a slicing weapon, it's not an axe, you need to be able to put all your weight into the tip of the sword when it hits the target allowing a slice to occur.

In japan, there is conformity, if you want to be trained in the use of the sword, you will do it right handed.

 

[Chris Parker]

What, I'm expected to just jump in on anything about swords here, am I?

Okay, fair enough!

The idea of all Japanese swordsmanship being right handed is basically due, as others have said, to the conformity aspect in Japan. Of course, there are always exceptions... Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, and others, have kata in their higher levels that are "left-handed", typically either for surprise, or in cases where the right hand is taken out of use, somehow. It's not dissimilar to the idea that (when wielding two swords) the Daito is in the right hand, and the Shoto is in the left, but in a number of systems, this is reversed. It all depends on usage and context.

If I was to start thinking about the placement of the sword on the left hip, therefore leading to a right-handed draw (again, there are exceptions to this as well...), I'd probably look back to armoured use, where the right side is kept back from the enemy, as that is where the gap is. If you're keeping your left side to the enemy (on horseback, as that was the dominant method of warfare), then having the sword on the right hip would leave you open when drawing it as the enemy closed. Not sure that that is the reason, but it's probably an influence.

Oh, and for the record, Sekiguchi Ryu is actually opposite to the standard power generation in swordsmanship, with the right hand providing the power, and the left hand used to stop the weapon.

 

[Sukerkin]

LOL.

See!? You can learn things on the internet!

 

[Ken Morgan]

I'm ADHD, I really can't be bothered getting into all the details of things, I say the minimum and move on. I learned by jumping in the deep end and not yelling help when i was going under for the third time.

 

[Langenschwert]

There's no biomechanical reason why you couldn't use a left-hand lead, especially with a two-handed weapon. Most things work the same way no matter which is the lead hand. It's entirely cultural, though there are a few things that don't work as well with opponents of opposite handedness, and a few things that work better. Also, a left-hander would have his saya on the wrong side, causing no end of insults as he walked down the street as his saya smacked everyone else's.

It's certainly difficult for a right hander to learn to use the left for power. Jogo do Pau (Portuguese stick fighting), is always done with the left hand leading, presumably to get around that very problem. Same for French baton, IIRC.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Aiki Lee]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I had assumed to be true all the things mentioned, but it's nice to get some confirmation.

 

[mambawaba]

Just one correction to Langenschwert, about jogo do pau, it is practiced with the dominant hand on the extremity(back), just happens that most people have the right hand as dominant but we do have to deal with left handed fighters and that is very interesting when it happens. It is interesting too that there is a standard in japan culturally imposed like that.

How far is that true too in european swordsmanship?

 

[pgsmith]

Here's a point that was missed in the earlier discussion about left-handed swordsmen ... it was considered a deadly insult resulting in an immediate fight for someone to hit your sword. This is why Japanese always stay to the left side of a road or path. If you were to use your sword raversed from everyone else, you would be inviting disaster because it would be sticking out on the side that everyone was walking, meaning it would be getting hit constantly. It's like asking why left-handed people aren't allowed to drive on the opposite side of the road from everyone else.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Here's a point that was missed in the earlier discussion about left-handed swordsmen ... it was considered a deadly insult resulting in an immediate fight for someone to hit your sword. This is why Japanese always stay to the left side of a road or path. If you were to use your sword raversed from everyone else, you would be inviting disaster because it would be sticking out on the side that everyone was walking, meaning it would be getting hit constantly. It's like asking why left-handed people aren't allowed to drive on the opposite side of the road from everyone else.

And don't forget, if you are walking with your sword and saya facing into the passing people, they can grab your sword and put essentially disarm you. By keeping the sword on the other side, people passing by can not get to the weapon.

 

[Langenschwert]

Just one correction to Langenschwert, about jogo do pau, it is practiced with the dominant hand on the extremity(back), just happens that most people have the right hand as dominant but we do have to deal with left handed fighters and that is very interesting when it happens. It is interesting too that there is a standard in japan culturally imposed like that.

How far is that true too in european swordsmanship?

Interesting. I assumed that JdP was always left-hand lead.

In medieval and renaissance swordsmanship it is assumed that most fencers will be right-hand lead. The manuals for the most part assume this. Early Liechtenauer sources only go so far as to say that if you fence left-handed, strike from your left side whenever possible so as not to get overwhelmed in the bind, and likewise a right-handed fighter should fence from his right. I believe Fiore mentions some techniques that "work against left and right handers". IIRC some were actually for mounted combat.

Some manuals go into considerable detail on how to deal with fencers of opposite handedness, particularly Jeu de la Hache (pollaxe) which devotes a third of its content to left vs. right handers. Pallas Armata (rapier) deals with such cross-handed pairings also in part.

I.33 is the oldest European swordsmanship manual, and does not deal with left-handed fencers. However, there are isolated plates from other books that show how the odd play from I.33 works out badly if tried against a left-hander. Whether it directly references I.33 by design I don't know.

Best regards,

-Mark (who is left-handed and often fences that way)

 

[mambawaba]

Cool! It seems then that people would use what they feel more comfortable with. Since most people would be right handed, only sporadically that situations would occur as you found some situations.It is nice to know that is not just part of the living and rural tradition I practice but also a common thing for centuries along Europe. In my view It doesn't make much sense to constrict things like that and only adds richness to the art and practice, while making it more universal.

 

[mambawaba]

on another note, I practiced kendo for a few years, and in kendo I was always told to do more strength with the back hand, and that is exactly how we are told to do at jogo do pau, simply there is other hand on the back, but same principle.

 

[Langenschwert]

It is nice to know that is not just part of the living and rural tradition I practice but also a common thing for centuries along Europe.

Very neat. I'd love to have the chance to do JdP. I contacted the Portuguese cultural centre here to see if there were any practicioners in the city but no one ever got back to me. You are very fortunate to be able to study living lineage European MA. My living lineage arts are all Japanese, although there is much similarity between Japanese and European sword arts.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[mambawaba]

I guess it is Very Hard to find groups outside of Portugal, however, Luis Preto is now in Canada, Vancouver if Im not wrong, he is studying to a masters degree something related to sports science or something similar so he should stay there for a long time, you should be able to get in contact with him if you can. here: luispreto@yahoo.com he is one of the best jogo do pau instructors you could have

have a look at his new website on training for fencing www.pretomartialarts.com