The importance of the low kick

[Manny]

The low kick is a super tool too fos the streets, it's easy to deliver and easy to score with, the main targets are the groin, the inner tight, the outer tight, the knee and the shin.

Using low kicks towards the oponent legs is a good thing to do cause the fight can be over soon, if the bad guy can't walk, simply can't fight.

Manny

 

[Damian Mavis]

Yes, easiest and simplest to use against the outer thigh and try to disable the leg with a charlie horse in one shot. Seen it used in a bar and the guy just dropped and couldnt get up. However that was with the shin as the attacking tool. The shin bone cuts through soft thigh muscle very effectively, meaning penetrates the muscle easier. Ive been the victim of the leg kick many times and it really is a great self defence technique (due to my training in muay thai, not because I get into fights on the street with leg kickers all the time heh). I encourage all TKD schools to work it as part of their self defence repetoire.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD Thailand

 

[MBuzzy]

In a self defense situation, a solid kick to the knee can be extremely effective - there isn't a whole lot that an attacker can do without his knees. Just be careful, as this can cause permanent damage.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I agree that low kicks are a great help in the streets.
Now how do you train with them in the school

 

[Independent_TKD]

In my training, I have advocated the use of low roundhouse kicking (with the top of foot) and low shin kicking (with the lower/mid shin bone). One of the many reasons I moved away from WTF taekwondo was unwillingness to change. Most of the WTF people I trained with would not incorportate this kick into the curriculum. They said it was not a "taekwondo kick". That style of kicking comes from muay thai and is very effective at the mid fighting range.

To practice the low thai kick, get a very strong and solid heavy bag. Take the chains and rigging of of it. Set it on the mat with your partner keeping it upright. This is perfect because the heavy bag is now at knee/thigh level. For me, this has been the easiest, safest, and most practical way to practice this kick.

For us TKD guys, here are some things to keep in mind. When executing the low thai kick, you first take a short 45-degree step forward with your front leg. Your rear leg swings through the target. When you first start practicing this kick, allow time for your shins to toughen up. For me, I kicked the bag at about 70% strength 20-30 times on each shin. I did this for about two weeks before I tried a hard kicking workout.

 

[Miles]

I agree that low kicks are a great help in the streets.
Now how do you train with them in the school

We have a shield which is similar to a pregnant hogu-it has bellow-like action when it is struck. We hold this down on our thigh (right about where one's thumb rests when standing at attention) and kick. We don't use the same motion as a Muay Thai roundhouse-we still use TKD roundhouse-practice hitting with the instep and the ball of the foot.

Miles

 

[terryl965]

We have a shield which is similar to a pregnant hogu-it has bellow-like action when it is struck. We hold this down on our thigh (right about where one's thumb rests when standing at attention) and kick. We don't use the same motion as a Muay Thai roundhouse-we still use TKD roundhouse-practice hitting with the instep and the ball of the foot.

Miles

Miles do you have a pic of that shield so I can see what you are talking about.

 

[Last Fearner]

the main targets are the groin, the inner tight, the outer tight, the knee and the shin.

Be careful not to be too tight, or you could pull a muscle! :uhyeah:

I encourage all TKD schools to work it as part of their self defence repetoire.

I don't know why you would need to "encourage" all TKD schools to work on low kicks to the leg, since it has always been a part of Taekwondo training. Some (sport oriented) schools might abandon these, and other real-life applications of our art, but that is their own limited understanding. Anyway, I view it as an automatic part of Taekwondo - - always has been, and probably always will be!

One of the many reasons I moved away from WTF taekwondo was unwillingness to change. Most of the WTF people I trained with would not incorportate this kick into the curriculum.

The WTF is a governing body for sport rules. They have no bearing on a school's curriculum, and do not indicate whatsoever what is involved in the application of kicks outside the rules of a tournament. If instructors are only in the business for preparing athletes for the Olympic, then they might only train in techniques that are allowed in competition. Not all schools who are "recognized" by the WTF, even if they do tournaments, abandon the low kicks and other self defense applications in their "regular" training curriculum.

They said it was not a "taekwondo kick". That style of kicking comes from muay thai and is very effective at the mid fighting range.

If they were talking about kicking low, to the leg, groin, etc., then they would be incorrect. However, if you are specifically referring to using the "shin" as a weapon, then yes, this is not an approached used by most Taekwondo practitioners, and I would not advocate it as well. The range has nothing to do with it. If I am out of range, and can not reach your legs with a kick, then you can not reach me. If we come within kicking range, I can damage, or destroy any part of your leg with the ball, instep, heel, arc, or foot-sword from a variety of angles.

The "tool" of the foot below the ankle is much more effective (in my opinion) when it comes to destroying a target in one powerful kick, and I can use it at any range within my leg's reach. Furthermore, I don't need to risk damaging the skin tissue, blood vessels, or bones of the shin area by pounding on a hard surface. The shin bone striking tool typically used in Muay Thai is best left there.

As a Taekwondoist (and the majority that I know) I don't believe we need it, feel it is less effective and conditioned for impact, and contains less power upon impact than the furthest extension of the leg - - the foot. I'll break at least six boards with a side kick. I have yet to see anyone do that with their shin.

For us TKD guys, here are some things to keep in mind. When executing the low thai kick, you first take a short 45-degree step forward with your front leg.

I don't preview a kick with a step forward. This is called "telegraphing" and can let your opponent know your going to kick. If my target is within range, I strike with no extra steps - - front leg for speed, back leg for more power.

Your rear leg swings through the target.

As a Taekwondoist, I don't "swing" my leg at the hip. I cock the kick at the knee, and fire it out with rapid acceleration to specific point beyond the target. Target is in the way . . . target gets destroyed!

There is only one reason I study the way a "thai fighter" kicks; so that when he makes his move, I know how to prevent it, counter it, and follow up with a prefered Taekwondo kicking application. It is a mistake to not be prepared to deal with a low kick with a shin from any attacker, but it is also a mistake to try to switch to that way of attacking since Taekwondo kicks far exceed what you need.

These are just my opinions, but then, I am just a beginner at Taekwondo! :ultracool

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Damian Mavis]

Last Fearner, I respect your knowledge and experience but you are really incorrect about the muay thais use of the shin as an attacking tool. Not trying to be disrespectful or insulting in any way.... I train both arts extensively and have fought both so have a different perspective than you. You know alot about TKD but if you knew more about muay thai you would not have the opinions you stated.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD Thailand

 

[Miles]

Miles do you have a pic of that shield so I can see what you are talking about.

There was a photo on the old school's website, but it is not there anymore. I will try to get a picture of it and post it. The guy who made them, Aaron Morris, sewed them in his garage. I don't think he's in business anymore but it is the best shield I've ever kicked (though I like the Revgear shields a lot).

Miles

 

[Last Fearner]

you are really incorrect about the muay thais use of the shin as an attacking tool.

You know alot about TKD but if you knew more about muay thai you would not have the opinions you stated.

Please, enlighten me as to what you believe I do not know about the use of the shin as a striking tool, or about Muay Thai's application of it!

I would welcome an open discussion if there are specifics that you feel would be different than what I have learned about the subject.

I look forward to your reply!

Thanks,
CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Damian Mavis]

Well I'll do my best but telling you about it is kinda like telling you about sex.... you really won't understand or accept until you get some hands on experience so to speak. I dont mean to be a jerk by saying that but sincerely..... we as TKD people are pretty set in our ways and refuse to accept anything contrary to what we believe until we feel it ourselves... wait a minute, thats not TKD people that's human nature heh.

I'll just quickly tell you about my experience so you understand where my facts come from and that I'm not just guessing or making opinions with no founding. I've been training TKD 16 years, teaching for 12, was Canadian GTF middle wieght champion 1996 and love to spar. I have trained muay thai 3 years in Canada and another 3 years in Thailand and have sparred world champion fighters and fought in the ring full contact here wearing just shorts and boxing gloves. I LOVE 180 side kick, I've broken 8 boards with that kick and felled my opponent in the ring here with that very kick. I only mention this last part so you know that I do know about the power of TKD.

Ok, 2 things: the shin is a safer attacking tool when kicking towards the legs and the shin is a more damaging attacking tool, that second part is going to be harder for you to accept by far I do believe.

Safety to me is the most important of the 2. If you could gaurantee that your opponent would not move than kicking the leg with any attacking tool is fine as you could hit the soft targets such as the thigh without injuring yourself and disabling or breaking your own foot. If they flinch away, raise their leg or god forbid actually shield like a muay thai practitioner than you will most lilkely clip some pointy bone (thier knee or shin or ankle). The muay thai shield is the standard way muay thai fighters block kicks to the leg and torso by raising their knee and pointing the defending shin out towards the incoming kick. Its a very hard sharp blocking surface. If you kick as hard as you can and make contact with thier knee when it is bent, or shin or even ankle as I learned the hard way... you can easily disable your own foot with a serious sprain bad enough to drop you on the spot or break the small bones of the instep and get the same result. The fight would be over before it began if you lead with a (roundhouse) leg kick and hit leg bone with the small bones of the foot. The large heavy bones of the leg will always win against the small bones of the foot. I'm talking about a street situation not a ring fight although both would have the same result.

I've been kicked full contact in the thigh with the instep and the shin... the instep kick hurt like crazy, the shin kick dropped me to the floor and I could not get up right away or walk properly for weeks. The sharp shin bone is very hard and solid (no moving parts like a bat) and is a smaller surface area so has more pounds of pressure in one sharp spot. The execution of the kick is different but the resulting power levels are too similar to judge. With equal power, the only thing that sets them apart is the sharpness, density and surface area of the attacking tool... in these respects the shin wins VS the instep.

I'm not trying to brag, but I am an expert in both turning kick (roundhouse) styles and I can kick really hard with both, I would prefer to use the shin as the attacking tool when targetting the leg (for safety) and the instep or ball of the foot when targetting the torso and head (for range).

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD Thailand

 

[Kacey]

The muay thai shield is the standard way muay thai fighters block kicks to the leg and torso by raising their knee and pointing the defending shin out towards the incoming kick.

I know a fair number of TKD practitioners who block incoming kicks this way... whether they came to it as a method independently or imported it from elsewhere I can't say.

 

[GlassJaw]

In my training, I have advocated the use of low roundhouse kicking (with the top of foot) and low shin kicking (with the lower/mid shin bone).

In our school, one of our basic kicks is what we call a "Low 45". It's similar to a full roundhouse kick, except that the chamber is less pronounced and the hips don't turn over quite so far (pivot foot usually doesn't go beyond 45 degrees past the line with the opponent, nor does the chest).

The reduced chamber means less telegraphing, but in turn reduces the range of height over which the kick may be effective (usually between knee and mid torso). And the reduced pivot means quicker recovery (often used to set up a combo), but also limits the power which may be delivered.

Many might describe it as just a half-assed roundhouse kick. But it's fast and functional, so we practice it deliberately as a separate kick. (Granted, I don't recall us ever practicing it below hip level, but we're all aware that it would be effective for taking out a knee.)

In a self defense situation (and sparring, too, for that matter), A Low 45 probably comes in handy a lot more frequently than, say, an in-to-out crescent kick (which we also practice, of course).

Dan

 

[MBuzzy]

In our school, one of our basic kicks is what we call a "Low 45". It's similar to a full roundhouse kick, except that the chamber is less pronounced and the hips don't turn over quite so far (pivot foot usually doesn't go beyond 45 degrees past the line with the opponent, nor does the chest).

Glassjaw,

We also practice the low 45 kick. I actually prefer the kick, because it is much faster. I've also found that you can get some height with it - it is just all about the angle that the kick comes from. Rather than parallel to the floor, it comes up at a 45 angle.

 

[Last Fearner]

Well I'll do my best but telling you about it is kinda like telling you about sex.... you really won't understand or accept until you get some hands on experience so to speak.

I understand your analogy, but if you think about it, this analogy would only be applicable if I was a virgin. It assumes I have little or no sexual "experience" so to speak. I'm sure this is not what you are suggesting, but you have to consider that the person might have a whole lot more experience with sex than you do (don't assume things - )

we as TKD people are pretty set in our ways and refuse to accept anything contrary to what we believe until we feel it ourselves... wait a minute, thats not TKD people that's human nature heh.

(emphasis added)

Not necessarily. There is a natural learned behavior to stick with what we have experienced works, and resist change to an unknown or unproven condition (at least unproven to that individual). However, to say that we are "set in our ways" implies that we shut ourselves off to evidence contrary to our beliefs. It is true that people usually do not switch just because someone else suggests a different way, but why would anyone change without irrefutable proof that the other way is better.

It would be an error for you to think that you are the only one here who has experience with both of these types of kicks, or that you have more experience with them. I submit that your personal experience and preferences are simply different than mine, not more knowledgeable.

Ok, 2 things: the shin is a safer attacking tool when kicking towards the legs and the shin is a more damaging attacking tool,...

OK, let's look at what you have claimed:

1. The shin is a safer attacking tool. - - safety of the instep kick is in its correct application, and shin attacks have higher risk of counters.

2. The shin is a more damaging tool. - - This one is not proven, and I believe incorrect.

Safety to me is the most important of the 2. If you could gaurantee that your opponent would not move than kicking the leg with any attacking tool is fine as you could hit the soft targets such as the thigh without injuring yourself and disabling or breaking your own foot.

Alright, here is issue one: "safety." In this reference, you seem to be focusing on the safety of you, the kicker, not to be injured while attacking. Here are some flaws with this logic. First, you are only comparing the "shin" to the "instep." While I might use the instep in certain applications to specific targets at the right time, my primary tools to kick the leg will be the ball (front kick or roundhouse) arch (inward stomp), and blade or heel (side kick).

Believe me, the issue of an opponent moving rather than standing still for me to kick them is not a new concept to me. I choose my targets, timing, and power wisely so as not to "risk" accidental injury, and I control my attack so that I can stop, or change the kick if my opponent moves in a position I don't like.

The muay thai shield is the standard way muay thai fighters block kicks to the leg and torso by raising their knee and pointing the defending shin out towards the incoming kick.

This too is not a new concept, and Taekwondo uses various types of defenses as well. However, it is a very risky thing to do. Don't think for a moment that a lifelong kicker, such as myself, has not considered what to do if a "muay thai" person, or anyone else raises their leg as a "shield." This movement opens the groin, pins the weight on the opposite leg, and provides for a variety of counter moves without ever making impact with the intended "shield."

If you kick as hard as you can and make contact with thier knee when it is bent, or shin or even ankle as I learned the hard way... you can easily disable your own foot...

(emphasis added)

Yes, I guess you could learn this "the hard way" :ultracool However, it is a foolish maneuver for anyone to launch an initial attack by kicking "as hard as you can." If you are concerned about safety, as you say, then remember that initial strikes are light to medium contact to distract, and temporarily disable your opponent to set them up for the power kick that they will then not be physically able to move, shield, deflect, or do anything to prevent.

I've been kicked full contact in the thigh with the instep and the shin... the instep kick hurt like crazy, the shin kick dropped me to the floor and I could not get up right away or walk properly for weeks.

Again, here you are talking about your own personal experiences which might be isolated to certain circumstances that you were in at that time. How many times have you been kicked by each type of kick? Did the instep kick strike the exact same target as the shin kick? Was the person doing the instep kick as skilled at Taekwondo type instep kicks as the person doing the shin kick (how do you know), and was the instep kick really delivered with as much potential power as it could have been? (again, how do you know).

This goes to issue 2 of your claim: "The shin is a more damaging tool."

Are there other people in Taekwondo who could possibly drop you with one single instep kick to your thigh, or knee? This is also neglecting the ball of the foot roundhouse which would do more damage than both instep or shin kick (proof??? break some boards with your shin - - with your instep - - with the ball of the foot. Which technique will break more boards?)

The sharp shin bone is very hard and solid (no moving parts like a bat) and is a smaller surface area so has more pounds of pressure in one sharp spot.

Going with this theory for a moment, would you contend that the inner forearm would be better than a ridge hand strike. If I were to strike the side of a person's head, by your analogy, the forearm is more solid like a bat. The hand has smaller bones. Should I swing my arm at the shoulder and strike with the sharp inner forearm rather than the surface of the fragile bones of the ridge hand. Again, break some board both ways and test the results - - or, pad up an opponent with really thick, tripple layer,body pads and test ridge hand vs. inner forearm, and instep vs. shin to the ribs.

When it comes to potential damage, it depends on who is executing the kick, what the target is, and how the technique is performed. For power and damage, I opt for the ball of the foot roundhouse as compared to a similar motion of the shin kick, however other kicks work better to the legs, and give you more options.

When it comes to "safety," not only is this an issue for proper application, timing, and control, but there is a more important "safety" issue. If you stick your hand in the open mouth of an alligator, you might be able to pull it out before he snaps it shut. However, if you stick your arm in elbow deep, be prepared to lose your arm. Aside from the fact that you have to be physically closer to your opponent to attack with the shin (mistake - risky - unsafe!), you are inserting your leg further into a potential trap (fatal mistake - very risky - no where near safe!)

Attacking your opponent's leg with the foot has some risks, but sticking your leg in far enough to use the shin will only work if the alligator is sleeping or dead. You better believe that I have analyzed the kicking with the shin application from every angle over the past 31 years, and I would not have a problem with destroying a person who attempted such a risky move. I have counters for that type of kick that do not fail, but I won't reveal them here (momma didn't raise no fool! :ultracool )

I'm not trying to brag, but I am an expert in both turning kick (roundhouse) styles and I can kick really hard with both, I would prefer to use the shin as the attacking tool when targetting the leg (for safety) and the instep or ball of the foot when targetting the torso and head (for range).

Well, I'm glad to hear that you consider yourself an "expert" on the subject, but let me assure you, I was only joking earlier when I said that "I am just a beginner at Taekwondo." Don't be misled to think that Taekwondo is all I know. I know what boxers do, how wrestlers move, what the tactics of jujutsu (jujitsu and judo) players. I know how Karate and Kung-fu approach attacks, and I am well aware of the skills attempted by Muay Thai fighters.

Taekwondo, within itself, has methods of dealing with all of these without having to borrow their techniques simply because some good practitioners of one system have been successful at applying them to a not so good practitioner of another (This is a general observation, and not intended to refer to you or anyone else here at MT). I train to be good at what I do, then there is no penetration by techniques that Taekwondoists have ruled out as being not beneficial or safe.

Again, these are just my opinions, but they are not derived from a lack of expertise either. Thanks for sharing, though!

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Damian Mavis]

You should really take part in a muay thai fight to test your theories.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD Thailand

 

[Adept]

This is also neglecting the ball of the foot roundhouse which would do more damage than both instep or shin kick (proof??? break some boards with your shin - - with your instep - - with the ball of the foot. Which technique will break more boards?)

Hardly proof. I once saw a guy on the telly break something like fifty baseball bats in a minute, using his shins.

A board is a very poor simulation of any part of the human body, and breaking boards in no way measures the relative power of a strike.

I'm sure you could measure the relative power of each strike, but it would require all sorts of Mythbuster-esque technology and know-how. We as martial artists can say 'oh, I've been using this kick for ten (or twenty, or fifty, or more!) years, I know which is the most powerful!'

But no single one of us is ever viewing the whole picture. We might have been hurt more by someone using a particular kick, or one of our particular kicks might be better than another, and so we mistakenly believe that our way is the best, never considering that an objective analysis might yield quite different results.

Going with this theory for a moment, would you contend that the inner forearm would be better than a ridge hand strike.

Hmm. Not exactly a great continuation of the analogy. The ridgehand strike has a fleshy pad of muscle as it's point of impact, which cushions the smaller bones of the hand as opposed to the exposed and relatively fragile radius (or is it the ulna? I always forget which one is which).

The shin is a very thick heavy bone, which requires no protection and offers a smaller surface area, resulting in a greater concentration of force. If the lower arm was composed of a single heavy bone, then there would definately be instances where it is a more appropriate weapon than the hand. Even as it is, it can be an effective weapon when used as an elbow.

Really, it's not a situation that requires much of an analogy. To prevent us from getting off-track:

if you are specifically referring to using the "shin" as a weapon, then yes, this is not an approached used by most Taekwondo practitioners, and I would not advocate it as well...

The "tool" of the foot below the ankle is much more effective (in my opinion) when it comes to destroying a target in one powerful kick, and I can use it at any range within my leg's reach. Furthermore, I don't need to risk damaging the skin tissue, blood vessels, or bones of the shin area by pounding on a hard surface. The shin bone striking tool typically used in Muay Thai is best left there.

I would argue that a kick would deliver more force if its point of impact were the shin, rather than the instep. This is, of course, ignoring the myriad other types of kick, and ignoring the uses of the extra range one gains by using the instep. It is a comparison solely between a medium ranged kick using either the instep or the shin as a point of impact.

I have counters for that type of kick that do not fail, but I won't reveal them here (momma didn't raise no fool! :ultracool )

That doesn't sound very convincing, really. What are these counters?

 

[Balrog]

Yes, easiest and simplest to use against the outer thigh and try to disable the leg with a charlie horse in one shot. Seen it used in a bar and the guy just dropped and couldnt get up.

Ah, yes. The common peroneal pressure point. One of my favorites and a very highly effective technique. It's hard for someone to chase you after you make their leg feel like you just amputated it with a rusty chain saw.

 

[kaizasosei]

wellplaced or well implemented lowkicks can be debilatating or at least very distracting.
so if you want to keep your style and have ultimate safety, learn to block with the soles of your feet. also i think the heel is one of the nastiest bones to get hit by and there is lots of swing in the shape of the heel. ofcourse it is not the most ideal spot to be lowkicking with, but if you block a lowkick just right you can also make the opponent feel his leg has gone on strike therefore more likely to win against an imobile or downed opponent.

therefore, blocking is just as effective as striking. also, a lowkick is often used as a kind of distraction or block. a block in the sense many people who do not know how to inflict serious pain or even string up a combo...those people are just doing lowkicks because they don't know what else to do...imho óne has to use it correctly to get the best results.

i just recently saw a fight where the one guy was repeatedly getting struck in the same spot over and over-insidelefttheigh. he was taking it fairly well the first 10 or 15 times. but the next solid hit sent him to the ground like the straw that broke the camels back. x marks the spot. the theigh looked like it was about to turn from blueishpink to flourescent purple. ouch.




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