The importance of real experience

windwalker099

Green Belt
Joined
Nov 8, 2022
Messages
130
Reaction score
59
A teacher I had trained under a long time ago....because of his real world experience.
not really possible to spar with him safely.

roger5.jpeg


Mr Park n-mantis, practicing with a friend of mine Roger Haygood
in the 70s...Roger would later go on to study s-mantis

"
His name is also romanized as: Park Chi Moon.
Shifu Park Chil Sung was born in 1930 in what is now North Korea. He first began studying gong fu within his family at a very young age (around 7 or 8 years old).

He later traveled around the Korean peninsula studying under any master he could find. At that time he met his main master, shifu Lin Ping Jiang.

During the Korean war he along with most other young men from his home town were recruited to fight for the south as guerilla fighters not actually associated with the formal army.

After the war he was able to relocate to the south and has not seen his family since then.

Shifu Park Chil Sung worked for some time after the war for the South Korean equivalent of the American CIA, training in hand to hand combat.

He has been teaching at Camp Casey Tongdushon (a U.S. Army post just south of the DMZ - north of Seoul) since the 70's, with many of his students being U.S. Military personnel. In the year 2000 he was still alive and teaching in Korea."
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
22,469
Reaction score
7,224
Anyone one of you meet "that guy" ...Only saw him at tournament doing a demo...
asking for members of the audience to participate in getting knocked out.

oh ya good idea...

Back in the day, another teacher Taika Oyata
"Oyata first learned Okinawan weapons (kobudo) from Uhugushiku, a bushi and retired palace guard.

He also studied with Wakinaguri,[1][9][10] whose family was descended from the Chinese families who emigrated to Ryukyu during the Ming Dynasty. "




noted for his touch knock outs..

Like teacher Dilman,,,watch the demo...

Get hit directly or indirectly on the carotic artery, even a light touch can disrupt blood flow to the brain...
not good....

In boxing there are what are sometimes called buttons used by boxers for knock outs...also not good...
Even if one is not knocked lots of damage "punch drunk" comes to mind

Interestingly on topic.

George Dilman has real experience. He trained with the guy. And people vouch that he did the thing.

So therefore we need to view his teaching as relevant.

Or if it is not relevant how do we make that distinction?
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
22,469
Reaction score
7,224
A teacher I had trained under a long time ago....because of his real world experience.
not really possible to spar with him safely

Interestingly I have sparred safely with Paul Cale despite his real world experience.


I also don't really agree with the real world violence bit so much.

Super soldiers don't stub their toe and be like. Well compared to being murdered this is comparatively not important.

They hop around and swear like everyone else.
 
Last edited:

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
22,469
Reaction score
7,224

Carlos condit beating up a special forces guy. Now theoretically because of the gloves and the rules and the inherent non Serious nature of this exchange. The special forces guy should just get up right?

Or mabye real experience isn't a panacea.
 

Jared Traveler

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Jul 17, 2022
Messages
803
Reaction score
373
Super soldiers don't stub their toe and be like. Well compared to being murdered this is comparatively not important.

They hop around and swear like everyone else.
You obviously never met my Dad! Mental toughness is definitely a factor.
 

Yokozuna514

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
760
Reaction score
573
Lots of interesting comments and reading on this thread. In terms of the OPs initial question, my take is, real life experience is secondary to the ability to communicate and affect a students progress through the feedback you can provide.

You may be a world champ or have had special training where youve had to put your training into practice but if you cannot explain or demonstrate it to your students in such a way as to make their technique better, then how useful is it ? Just standing in front with the knowledge in your head isnt going to be helpful to anyone if you cannot deliver it in a way to inspire your students to follow your advice.

The best instructors I have seen can make complex concepts seem so simple to understand. Thats not only a skill that is achieved when experiencing real life experience but through practicing the craft of communication and feedback. Real life experience looks good and helps with the resume but the proof comes out when you hit the floor and try to teach someone else.
My two cents
 

windwalker099

Green Belt
Joined
Nov 8, 2022
Messages
130
Reaction score
59
People should understand the context of what they'er training for...
and why...

Keep in mind understanding the US military training has changed based on assumptions of having
total dominance over a Battlefield area.

Would never be the case with a "near peer" enemy

Just as using combative sport events to judge skill sets applicable to street encounters





or combat.might not be a good idea...


 
Last edited:

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
12,684
Reaction score
3,853
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
You may be a world champ or have had special training where youve had to put your training into practice but if you cannot explain or demonstrate it to your students in such a way as to make their technique better, then how useful is it ?
It's also the student's responsibility to pick up the useful information from his teacher.

With a Q&A as the following:

A: How did you take your opponent down in that challenge match?
B: I knee him first.

The teacher didn't say

- how to knee,
- where to knee,
- what happen after the kneeing.

If you are smart enough, you should be able to figure out something like these:

knee-strike-single-leg.gif


knee-strike-inner-hook.gif
 
Last edited:

windwalker099

Green Belt
Joined
Nov 8, 2022
Messages
130
Reaction score
59
If you are smart enough, you should be able to figure out the following set up:


Reflects what might be called a traditional training method attitude.

If you're not smart enough to figure it out on your own, maybe whatever one is learning it's not for them.

It is said, A teacher can lead one to the door, but they must pass through it on their own.

Providing one understands the door, one is trying to pass through.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
12,684
Reaction score
3,853
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
It is said, A teacher can lead one to the door, but they must pass through it on their own.

Providing one understands the door, one is trying to pass through.
One day I was so proud to tell my teacher that I have done the pole hanging for 5 years. he then told me that he had done that for 10 years when he was my age. I kept my mouth shut after that.

my_pole_hang.png
 

windwalker099

Green Belt
Joined
Nov 8, 2022
Messages
130
Reaction score
59
In Beijing

Some of the local students approached my teacher, wanting to know how to be the best.

He said "come here, and practice every day three hours in the morning, and three hours in the evening.
After 20 years, you just might get it "

. they didn't ask him again...
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
22,469
Reaction score
7,224
People should understand the context of what they'er training for...
and why...

Keep in mind understanding the US military training has changed based on assumptions of having
total dominance over a Battlefield area.

Would never be the case with a "near peer" enemy

Just as using combative sport events to judge skill sets applicable to street encounters





or combat.might not be a good idea...



The I don't know equals God argument.

What came before the nig bang?

I don't know.

Then God must have done it

And what the army combatives program looks like.
 

Anarax

Master Black Belt
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
1,000
Reaction score
361
Location
New Mexico
My first Taekwondo master was a US Special Forces instructor. My second master (for TKD and HKD) was a Korean Special Forces instructor. In those roles, you know they've seen combat, and that carries some weight to what they teach. My BJJ professor, as far as I know, doesn't have any real-world experience, but has plenty of competition experience in an art that's known for being up there in realism. My Muay Thai coach (also a BJJ black belt at my school) has had professional MMA fights and documented real-world self-defense results. I've seen the pictures.

My Dad and I recently tried a Hapkido class with a guy with credentials on IMDB, and we found him rather pompous. On the drive home, we had a lot of criticism for his approach. One question my Dad had is if he'd ever really used martial arts, because our old Hapkido Master has most likely killed before.

This brings me to me. I plan to continue learning BJJ and Muay Thai for the next several years, after which I'd like to open a TKD school. I'm doing these as a hobbyist; especially Muay Thai. I don't want a concussion. I don't want to give anyone a concussion. If I do compete in BJJ, I'm going to be competing at the beginner belts. I don't have much competition record from TKD either.

I guess its a bit of an identity crisis. I feel blessed to be trained by people that I know have done real stuff with their martial arts. I feel I'm a great teacher (based on my experience teaching for several years). But I don't really have the real-world experience to back it up, and I feel that gaining such experience is not really in anyone's best interest. I'd rather not fight than fight (and have successfully done so on many occasions since I got back into martial arts).
As a student, I mostly judge an instructor on their ability to teach, the methods they use and the training culture they have. I agree that on the surface someone with a professional record(boxing, kickboxing, MMA, etc) seems more "legitimate" than someone who doesn't. However, even world-class professional fighters can make ineffective teachers.

For example, Jon Jones is a phenomenal fighter with an impressive record against top contenders and high-level athletes. However, he was an ineffective coach on the 17th season of the ultimate fighter. He didn't know how to relate to his team he was coaching. He came off as uninvested and obtuse. His team was toxic and lacked any coherent teamwork because that was the type of culture he set with his behavior. On the other hand, Chael Sonnen(opposing coach that season), knew how to talk and relate to his team. He cared about their success and shared his knowledge with them. Chael wasn't at the level of ability as Jones nor was his professional record as impressive. However, he was a more effective coach during that season.

Cus D'Amato is another example. He was never a pro boxer, but he taught Floyd Patterson and Mike Tyson. Both were world-class boxers, but they were taught by a non-pro trainer. Watching Cus' training clips with Mike, you see how motivating, invested, clear and precise he was with his instruction.

All this to say, the strongest fighters don't always make the best teachers nor coaches. Real-life experience is a factor to consider, but I also place tremendous value on teaching ability and investment.
 

GojuTommy

Black Belt
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
509
Reaction score
189
My first Taekwondo master was a US Special Forces instructor. My second master (for TKD and HKD) was a Korean Special Forces instructor. In those roles, you know they've seen combat, and that carries some weight to what they teach. My BJJ professor, as far as I know, doesn't have any real-world experience, but has plenty of competition experience in an art that's known for being up there in realism. My Muay Thai coach (also a BJJ black belt at my school) has had professional MMA fights and documented real-world self-defense results. I've seen the pictures.

My Dad and I recently tried a Hapkido class with a guy with credentials on IMDB, and we found him rather pompous. On the drive home, we had a lot of criticism for his approach. One question my Dad had is if he'd ever really used martial arts, because our old Hapkido Master has most likely killed before.

This brings me to me. I plan to continue learning BJJ and Muay Thai for the next several years, after which I'd like to open a TKD school. I'm doing these as a hobbyist; especially Muay Thai. I don't want a concussion. I don't want to give anyone a concussion. If I do compete in BJJ, I'm going to be competing at the beginner belts. I don't have much competition record from TKD either.

I guess its a bit of an identity crisis. I feel blessed to be trained by people that I know have done real stuff with their martial arts. I feel I'm a great teacher (based on my experience teaching for several years). But I don't really have the real-world experience to back it up, and I feel that gaining such experience is not really in anyone's best interest. I'd rather not fight than fight (and have successfully done so on many occasions since I got back into martial arts).
Umm匈 hate to inform you of this but combat in warfare hasnt really involved punching and kicking in like宇housands of years地nd has gone away almost completely in the last 150 years.

Your typical bouncer or hospital security guard will probably have a lot more relevant experience than a retired special forces soldier (assuming the person in question was even really special forces and not just lying or embellishing.)
 

GojuTommy

Black Belt
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
509
Reaction score
189
I dont think its a foregone conclusion that the hapkido master has probably killed before, simply because he was a military combatives teacher or in special forces. He would need to have been in an active war zone. I dont think Korea sees a lot of hot action on a regular basis. And if he did kill someone, probably done with a rifle, and not hand-to-hand.

So it probably isnt relevant.
The Korean War is still on going with several naval skirmishes over the last 30 years.
I think it would be extremely naive to think that the special forces of both sides havent been even more active. Satellites provide good intel but nothing like what boots on the ground can provide, particularly on weapons programs.
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
22,040
Reaction score
7,742
Location
Pueblo West, CO
Umm匈 hate to inform you of this but combat in warfare hasnt really involved punching and kicking in like宇housands of years地nd has gone away almost completely in the last 150 years.
True. My Kwanjangnim was a special forces trainer. Lots and lots of Koreans who immigrated to the US were. He also trained Cadets at the Air Force Academy. But he isn't some Secret Korean Ninja who Kills with a Touch.
Your typical bouncer or hospital security guard will probably have a lot more relevant experience than a retired special forces soldier (assuming the person in question was even really special forces and not just lying or embellishing.)
There is truth to this. We have a son and a son-in-law on the Pueblo PD. Pueblo is notorious for having been the most violent city in Colorado every year for at least the last 30 years.
In any given month, I have been involved in way more use of force incidents in the ER than they have combined. It's been a running joke in the family for years.
 

GojuTommy

Black Belt
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
509
Reaction score
189
True. My Kwanjangnim was a special forces trainer. Lots and lots of Koreans who immigrated to the US were. He also trained Cadets at the Air Force Academy. But he isn't some Secret Korean Ninja who Kills with a Touch.

There is truth to this. We have a son and a son-in-law on the Pueblo PD. Pueblo is notorious for having been the most violent city in Colorado every year for at least the last 30 years.
In any given month, I have been involved in way more use of force incidents in the ER than they have combined. It's been a running joke in the family for years.
Ive worked 2 hospitals locally and the first one I was averaging going hands on with someone once per shift.
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
22,040
Reaction score
7,742
Location
Pueblo West, CO
Ive worked 2 hospitals locally and the first one I was averaging going hands on with someone once per shift.
I doubt I've ever gone a week (3 shifts) without. 4-5 times in one shift is not unheard of. And I'm not security. I just have a reputation for being good at handling (see what I did there?) explosive patients. I'm pretty good at talking them down, and if that fails I'm pretty good at putting them down without anybody (staff or patient) being injured.

Funny story. The hospital requires staff to sit through an annual training session on take downs and such. It's horrid. The stuff they teach is useless at best, and dangerous at worst. I should probably not speak at all during them, but I do.

While sitting in the back biting my tongue, the person running one of these described a scenario involving a violent patient and asked a particularly small ER nurse what she would do. Her reply was "I'd stick my head out the door and yell at Mark."
 
Top