Follow up strike after takedown

Kung Fu Wang

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We have seen many videos that one takes his opponent down and apply ground game after that. We have not seen many video that one takes his opponent down and follow up with strike such as punch or kick. Why?

You take your opponent down. You then knock him out while he is on the ground. This is a very logic process in any fight. What's your opinion on this?

 
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Holmejr

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One reason might be that one considered defense and the follow up offense. In videos some folk dont want to be portrayed as over the top aggressive so they leave out the juicy stuff or dont want to reveal their top secret lethal techniques. But Ive never trained anyplace that did not follow up at different degrees of aggression. It might end as a hold and pin or it might end up more severe depending on the situation.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

Kung Fu Wang

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One reason might be that one considered defense and the follow up offense.
But a takedown by itself can be considered as offense. Unless you just block all the punches and not punch back. When fists are flying, it's impossible to be 100% defense.
 

Tony Dismukes

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We have seen many videos that one takes his opponent down and apply ground game after that. We have not seen many video that one takes his opponent down and follow up with strike such as punch or kick. Why?

You take your opponent down. You then knock him out while he is on the ground. This is a very logic process in any fight. What's your opinion on this?

It's a pretty standard approach in a lot of systems. I've seen a ton of demos showing that.

I've also seen karate tournaments where sweeps are allowed and the competitor is allowed to score a point by showing one punch to the downed opponent before they are reset standing.

In MMA, ground and pound is a common approach. The top fighter will typically go to a dominant position on the ground for landing strikes rather than punching from standing because that way they have a better chance of landing enough strikes to achieve the knockout and finish the fight. (Also they don't have to worry about the potential need to disengage and exit quickly the way they might on the street.) However you still see some fights where the top fighter will stay standing to rain down punches. Some of the older MMA rulesets allowed kicking the head of a downed opponent and in those competitions it was more common for some fighters to stay standing and kick after executing a takedown.

In my classes, I teach my students to learn how throws first without going to the ground. That way they have the option of landing a quick strike and exiting if the situation demands it. If they know how to throw and stay standing, then it's easy to learn how to throw and go down and land on the opponent, but the reverse is not so easy.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

Kung Fu Wang

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If they know how to throw and stay standing, then it's easy to learn how to throw and go down and land on the opponent, but the reverse is not so easy.
Agree that to remain standing during the throw is not so easy. You have to prevent your opponent from dargging you down. That mean you have to know where your opponent's hands are.

IMO, to disable your opponent's arms when you take him down should be considered more seriously.
 

Jared Traveler

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I would say an important aspect to this conversation would be the term "preemptive counter violence."
 

Holmejr

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But a takedown by itself can be considered as offense. Unless you just block all the punches and not punch back. When fists are flying, it's impossible to be 100% defense.
Thought we were talking about videos and why the follow up pummeling is rarely shown. Videos rarely show the tenacity of an opponent. But, I agree with you. There is a fine line between defense and offense.
 

windwalker099

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Worked out with a SSG Brown while in the military as part of my testing my own work based on Tibetan White Crane at the time.
He a contender to fight Jeff Smith full contact long ago..70s. He had a gym in fort Bragg, called "House of discipline"


Practiced and taught Tang Soo Do, and Hapkido....
This would be before MMA, BJJ ect...his strategy damaging a person before the take down...

Hopkido, take downs transitioning from a punch...



Tang Soo Do,,,a good art, the practitioners are quite tough

 
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windwalker099

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You then knock him out while he is on the ground. This is a very logic process in any fight. What's your opinion on this?

Its slow, one could knock him out, on the way to the ground...
much faster


Oyata

"One of the best instructors I have ever met.

I asked him one day at a seminar in Iowa if could experience the knockout.

He says

you have heart problem.

I said no.

You have high blood pressure.

I said no.

You have insurance paid

I said yes.

Bam I was on floor looking up.

Two friends caught me on way down. This stuff is for real. I was proud to call him a friend and I do miss him."


Yes, insurance is very important
 
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wab25

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Or one could knock him out, on the way to the ground...


Oyata

"One of the best instructors I have ever met.

I asked him one day at a seminar in Iowa if could experience the knockout.

He says

you have heart problem.

I said no.

You have high blood pressure.

I said no.

You have insurance paid

I said yes.

Bam I was on floor looking up.

Two friends caught me on way down. This stuff is for real. I was proud to call him a friend and I do miss him."


Yes, insurance is very important
I am not so sure that I would train with a guy that sets you up to knock you out. He knows what attack is coming, and knocks out the other guy any way. I doubt they followed any kind of concussion protocol here... probably had those guys back on the mat to knock out again the next night...

If you are going to knock people out.... sign up for full contact fights.... Let the other guy try to knock you out too. But, telling them where to stand, how to attack and then knocking them out is not what I call a good teacher.

I wouldn't train with him and would not recommend any one else train with him either. If he is that good, I am sure there are sanctioned fights, where he could win a lot of money. But training people to get knocked out by you, is not great training in my book. Its abuse.
 

windwalker099

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If you are going to knock people out.... sign up for full contact fights..
Do you consider your self a martial artist, or martial sports enthusiast....

Depending on the answer, it will tend to frame the lens though which one view things through...

The reason why, for what and how one trains....

Might wanna check his back ground to understand "who" trained with him, and why.

Oyata is a descendent of Zana, Oyakata, a high ranking official of the Shuri Government before the Satsuma invasion Okinawa. Due to his heritage, Oyata received instruction from a direct descendent of the Okinawan Warrior class, Uhugushuku No-Tan-Mei. The Uhugushuku family were retainers of the Okinawan Monarchy serving as guardians for the Shuri Kingdom, a relationship dating back before the 14th Century.

Uhugushuku was known as a kakurei bushi "hidden warrior", meaning he did not teach karate publicly, reserving his teachings only to descendents of the warrior class/


Probably no kick boxers or MMA stylist on the list....

sanctioned fights, where he could win a lot of money.


Yep it's always about the benjamins
 
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windwalker099

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Both good demos,,,not fighting
Showing the same things being applied in different ways...

With emphasis on different aspects....





Most CMA uses some type of limb destruction, as part of the take down...
Unless the take down Itself is the main strategy instead of a by product
 
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skribs

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We have seen many videos that one takes his opponent down and apply ground game after that. We have not seen many video that one takes his opponent down and follow up with strike such as punch or kick. Why?

You take your opponent down. You then knock him out while he is on the ground. This is a very logic process in any fight. What's your opinion on this?

With the exception of MMA, most combat sports are isolated to the stand-up striking game or grappling. You cannot strike in wrestling, Judo, or BJJ competitions. You cannot do anything to a grounded opponent in Muay Thai, kickboxing, boxing, or Taekwondo.

MMA is one of the few where ground-and-pound is allowed. However, most people who want to strike want to stay standing, and most people who want to grapple on the ground aren't focused on striking.
 

drop bear

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Do you consider your self a martial artist, or martial sports enthusiast....

Depending on the answer, it will tend to frame the lens though which one view things through...

The reason why, for what and how one trains....

Might wanna check his back ground to understand "who" trained with him, and why.

Oyata is a descendent of Zana, Oyakata, a high ranking official of the Shuri Government before the Satsuma invasion Okinawa. Due to his heritage, Oyata received instruction from a direct descendent of the Okinawan Warrior class, Uhugushuku No-Tan-Mei. The Uhugushuku family were retainers of the Okinawan Monarchy serving as guardians for the Shuri Kingdom, a relationship dating back before the 14th Century.

Uhugushuku was known as a kakurei bushi "hidden warrior", meaning he did not teach karate publicly, reserving his teachings only to descendents of the warrior class/


Probably no kick boxers or MMA stylist on the list....




Yep it's always about the benjamins

Martial sports enthusiasts can also sucker punch people. That is hardly a deep mystical secret.
 

windwalker099

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Martial sports enthusiasts can also sucker punch people.

Is that what you saw

a demo, some asking to feel the teachers work....



His teaching style... its point striking

S-mantis uses many of the same principals using what they call the phoenix eye fist.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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a demo, some asking to feel the teachers work....
The 1st time that my teacher came to US back in 1978, someone asked my teacher to punch him as hard as he could.

It's a lose-lose situation. If you

- killed your opponent, you would go to jail for that.
- didn't kill your opponent, people would lose faith in your punching power.

chang_punch.gif
 

wab25

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Do you consider your self a martial artist, or martial sports enthusiast....

Depending on the answer, it will tend to frame the lens though which one view things through...

The reason why, for what and how one trains....
This is about him abusing his students. It does not matter what I train or why I train. He is abusing his students. Its just like the Judo coaches killing their students, throwing them too hard, just because they can. Whether I study Judo, Karate, TKD, BJJ or not... It is abuse for those Judo coaches to throw kids hard enough and repeated enough to kill them. Whether I am a professional fighter, LEO, special ops in military or a soccer dad hobbyist... that kind of abuse is wrong. Same goes for this guy knocking out his students, after showing them how to stand and give him the opening to use.

Might wanna check his back ground to understand "who" trained with him, and why.
I do not doubt he has trained with good people. I do not doubt his skill as a martial artist. I have doubts about his choice to knock people, repeatedly, without regard for their safety.

Yep it's always about the benjamins
No, its not about the benjamins. The people he is knocking out are standing there, in the position he wants them in... not defending themselves..... and he knocks them out. Even if his punch does nothing more than render them unconscious... watch their heads bounce off the floor when they fall... those are concussions.

His teaching style... its point striking
Stand here, like I tell you, don't move as I get into position and knock you out. Then, after knocking you out and having your head bounce off the ground.... let me keep knocking you down....

In a sanctioned bout.... the other guy is not going to stand there, or move in a prearranged way, for this guy to knock them out. And they will be defending themselves and trying to knock him out. That changes things.... when the other guy is allowed to defend himself and to attack you with the intent of knocking you out as well.

What this guy is doing is unsafe for his students. He is taking advantage of them. This is wrong. It does not matter who he trained with or who he trained. This is abuse. He might even be using his lineage to put himself into a position of power and influence, in order to get people to abuse...
 
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