The Generalist and The Specialist

[Cyriacus]

I'll agree and disagree with this. Perhaps this'd be better suited for its own thread, but I'll comment here for now. IMHO, I think both are valuable, both meaning the generalist and the specialist. In the specialists 'area' of specialty, yes, they're probably going to be the superior person. Ex: A stand up guy being placed in a strictly BJJ 'arena' yes, the BJJ guy will most likely come out on top. OTOH, in the early UFC, we saw strikers fail to survive against grapplers. They weren't in the BJJ guys 'arena', they could've done anything..punched, kicked, you name it, yet they seemed to fail.

I consider myself a generalist. I consider my training to be well rounded. I do seek out specialists to improve on my skills in a particular area. However, the difference between me and some other people, such as the OP of this thread, is that when I train in something, I usually dedicate alot of time. In other words, I don't go to a school, train for 2 mos. leave, go to the next place, stay a year, leave, go to the next, stay 3yrs, leave...lather, rinse, repeat. Furthermore, I don't make myself seem like an authority on things that I dont know. Now, OTOH, I've gone to seminars in arts that I don't regularly train in. I've done a few Pekiti Tirsia seminars. I've learned a number of great things from that art. However, I don't teach those things, I use them for my own personal training. Those were things that I took, things that really caught my eye, and things that I've drilled repeatedly, in hopes to remember and add to my toolbox. Yet, I'd never, after a 10+ hr seminar, talk like I was a PT expert.

But to each his own. In the end, it'll be that person that has to answer for his/her statements.

There are other angles to it, though.
Which is, of course, why it needs its own thread. When I trained ITF, I specialised in Kicking. But when I did some Boxing, I found the transition easier than I expected. Since then, Ive found Im simply better at punching, regardless of where My training was specialised in the past. This isnt something that developed, this is something I experienced on Day One. And i was able to hit people vastly more experienced than myself with those barely trained punches. Granted, they hit back better, but it was more than the other beginners could say. So, what happens when You have someone who happens to be quite able to jam the hell out of takedowns? Or finds themself surprisingly comfortable throwing someone around? Im of the opinion that they didnt survive well against grapplers due to the lack of common awareness of how grappling works. It was a new flavor on the scene, and it speared itself in thoroughly. The Grapplers were Grappling, and the Strikers where trying to power out, and failing. But nowadays, it seems like theres progressively less and less groundwork. In the matches Ive been watching, anyway.

 

[MJS]

There are other angles to it, though.
Which is, of course, why it needs its own thread.

New thread created!

When I trained ITF, I specialised in Kicking. But when I did some Boxing, I found the transition easier than I expected. Since then, Ive found Im simply better at punching, regardless of where My training was specialised in the past. This isnt something that developed, this is something I experienced on Day One. And i was able to hit people vastly more experienced than myself with those barely trained punches. Granted, they hit back better, but it was more than the other beginners could say. So, what happens when You have someone who happens to be quite able to jam the hell out of takedowns? Or finds themself surprisingly comfortable throwing someone around? Im of the opinion that they didnt survive well against grapplers due to the lack of common awareness of how grappling works. It was a new flavor on the scene, and it speared itself in thoroughly. The Grapplers were Grappling, and the Strikers where trying to power out, and failing. But nowadays, it seems like theres progressively less and less groundwork. In the matches Ive been watching, anyway.

Likewise, when I transitioned from Kenpo to Kyokushin, I saw a huge difference with the way they punch and kick, and IMO, my punching and kicking skill, has gone up greatly. The way I view the 2 (gen/spec) is this: when you specialize in something, you're devoting all your attention to that thing. You have you general practioner doctors, who of course know about the body, yet if I went to mine, and complained of issues with my heart, odds are, he's going to send me to a specialist.

Now, myself, I've crosstrained in some grappling for a while. However, my focus wasn't to get ranked. I wanted to feel comfortable, should I find myself there. So, I worked the basics....some escapes, the basic positions, some chokes, and locks. Would I get schooled by a BJJ blue? I could probably hold my own for a short time, however, yes, he'd probably kick my *** in time. LOL! I say that because I'm not dedicating the time that he most likely is. The average Joe thug....yes, I would probably stand a better chance...at least I'd like to think.

I like to use Maurice Smith and Mark Coleman as an example. Mark was a pure wrestler. Huge takedowns and controlling, yet his subs. weren't there...at that time. Mo was a striker. He worked with Frank Shamrock, learning enough (at that time) to survive...and survive he did! He held off Mark long enough to get back to his feet, where he ended up KOing Mark. IMO, at that time, I wouldn't consider Mo a grappler or a grappling specialist.

You are right though, and forgive me if I'm wrong, because its been a while since I've seen a recent UFC, but as of the time when I was watching, I saw alot more stand up. Sure, I saw some ground stuff, but nothing like the early days, where it was primarily everything on the ground.

 

[Chris Parker]

I'll agree and disagree with this. Perhaps this'd be better suited for its own thread, but I'll comment here for now. IMHO, I think both are valuable, both meaning the generalist and the specialist. In the specialists 'area' of specialty, yes, they're probably going to be the superior person. Ex: A stand up guy being placed in a strictly BJJ 'arena' yes, the BJJ guy will most likely come out on top. OTOH, in the early UFC, we saw strikers fail to survive against grapplers. They weren't in the BJJ guys 'arena', they could've done anything..punched, kicked, you name it, yet they seemed to fail.

Hmm.... not sure I'd say that the early UFC wasn't the BJJ guys' arena! To be clear about it, it was very much a Gracie event (there was a cheque presentation to Helio in the middle of the first one, for crying out loud, before Royce fought in the finals...), the ground in the octagon was far softer than the strikers were used to (so there wouldn't be any issues with safety for the grapplers), which made the strikers far slower than they were used to being, as well as not allowing as much power for their strikes, so yeah, it was a very pro-grappler environment!

There are other reasons that the strikers didn't win initially, but they weren't because it was an even playing ground...

 

[MJS]

Hmm.... not sure I'd say that the early UFC wasn't the BJJ guys' arena! To be clear about it, it was very much a Gracie event (there was a cheque presentation to Helio in the middle of the first one, for crying out loud, before Royce fought in the finals...), the ground in the octagon was far softer than the strikers were used to (so there wouldn't be any issues with safety for the grapplers), which made the strikers far slower than they were used to being, as well as not allowing as much power for their strikes, so yeah, it was a very pro-grappler environment!

There are other reasons that the strikers didn't win initially, but they weren't because it was an even playing ground...

Points taken Chris. However, IMO, I think things like that can only be used as an excuse, by the fighters, for so long. For example...the TV show here in the States, "Survivor". You have a show which has gone on for numerous seasons. Yet how many times do you hear a contestant say, "OMG, I don't think that I can do this anymore. I'm so weak, I'm so hungry. I'm ready to just give up." Umm...sorry, but if by now, you havent figured out that the conditions suck, you're on limited food, high risk of injury and/or your body just shutting down, etc, then you must not've paid much attention to the show all these years.

I'm not saying it wasn't 'fixed' to a point to favor the Gracie family, but (and I honestly dont know) how much has changed, as far as the ring goes, from 1993 to present? IMO, I'd be willing to say that it had more to do with the 1 dimensional fighters then, compared to today.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ah, but you cited the early UFC.... besides, Royce was (and remains) very much that one dimensional type of fighter, very much a specialist. During a question and answer period at the end of a seminar I attended with him, Royce was asked what he thought of MMA. His answer was basically that MMA meant that you couldn't do anything well enough, so you had to do bits of everything.

Besides, it could be argued that the conditions are what has created the form of MMA we see now, with a heavy focus on ground game. They aren't using it as an excuse at all, it was an observation made based on the early ones, and due to those observations, it developed the way it has.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I think of myself as open minded. I like to have people ask qustions and so do I. I like to look at things form different points of view. All are good for a good generalist.

I also think of myself a a specialist. In one of the systems I teach, it concentrates on single stick, and all translations to empty hand or blade are to be done at a much later date in the training. Also when the student understands more of the specialty and can apply the concepts and techniques in a different frame work.

** Excuse me Rich, but WTF, what are you talking about? ** (* Yes I talk to myself get over it. *)

A generalist who has trained only as a generalist may not get an insight to some higher level training and body position and sensitivity or what have you as they are spending all their time learning the basics again and again from different points of view, but never gettting to an advanced concept, timing, sensitivity, ..., .

A specialist will get this training. This training with an open mind can be used to apply in different situations of learning or application, which will make for them to become a good generalist.

I suck at ground fighting. I have little to no serious training there. I will roll with some people who I trust, or believe they will not break me for a notch on their belt. What helped me the most on the ground, was my stand up stick fighting. (* Yes I know they have nothing in common, yet they really do *) By listening to the opponents stick (* which never would have happened if thought to be a blade / hence the specialty *) you learn to listen to an inanimate object. This increases your sensitivity and feedback. So when you are on someone's hand or body you can listen with your hand or body to their position or movement and try to react to them.

One can train to an instructor level in a generalist system, and I woudl recomemnd they go specialize for a while. This specialty witll allow them to become better practitioners. They then can with the right mindset applyt the learnings to their generalities and training there. It will help them learn and apply even more.

Yet if they always are stuck at a certain level and have to get all those generals (* Military pun intended as Generals do not line up, and expect others to line up for them *) in line first before you can move forward in skill set, it can be difficult to get by this level. Yet if the concentrate on one thing and get better at it then they can improve and move forward.

Of course any given Sunday, it depends upon who shows up, ... , .

 

[MJS]

Ah, but you cited the early UFC.... besides, Royce was (and remains) very much that one dimensional type of fighter, very much a specialist. During a question and answer period at the end of a seminar I attended with him, Royce was asked what he thought of MMA. His answer was basically that MMA meant that you couldn't do anything well enough, so you had to do bits of everything.

Besides, it could be argued that the conditions are what has created the form of MMA we see now, with a heavy focus on ground game. They aren't using it as an excuse at all, it was an observation made based on the early ones, and due to those observations, it developed the way it has.

Yes, I did cite the early UFC, as that was part of my example that I was trying to use. I used that as IMO, that was one of the best gen/spec examples I thought of. Note in my first post, I said that in a strictly 1 dimensional ruleset, ie: A BJJ match, the stand up guy, the guy with no ground game, would be out of his element, and most likely lose. I went on to say that in the UFC, while we saw fighters that were all pretty much 1 dimensional, they weren't limited to play by one rule set or the other. LOL...funny he should say that, because we never saw him do anything but grapple...well, until he made a 'comeback' where he attempted striking, to no avail.

As for the last part...you said that the soft padding made it better for the grapplers. I am simply saying thats a poor excuse. What it really boils down to, is lack of preperation.

 

[elder999]

There's something to be said for breadth of knowledge, that is to say, genrealism.

There is also something to be said for depth of knowledge, that is to say, specialism.

I really don't see a problem with being both.

 

[Brian King]

There becomes a point in my opinion when a person can become 'too much of a specialist'. Taking the logic of becoming a specialist to a ridiculous extreme to demonstrate the point- and using grappling only because it has been so focus of many of the last few posts, we can take an imaginary student who decides that 'ground fighting' is the number one skill to learn to become a successful fighter, and while looking at statistics for the last 333 championship bouts and noticing that a technique called "rear naked choke" was the technique most widely admired for it's success, the student decides to really learn this technique as a specialization. Being a hard driven type A type, the student decides to narrow that specialization down even further in order to become so good at the technique that they will be unstoppable. Reading that 90% of all fights end up on the ground the student decides to specialize in the choke but only on the ground. Going back to the stats, the student sees that the majority of the champions that won the championship bouts fought no gi, so the student again narrows his technique study down to no gi/no clothing work. Thinking about the technique and again while reading the stats on the internet the student realizes that most of the champions who won the championship bout were right handed, so the student decides to only study the choke using his right arm across the side of the throat. While reading about chokes on wikipedia the student realizes that a major variation of the choke the student is the 'palm to palm' version and decides to specialize in that version while maintaining the focus of only on the ground, only while no-gi, and using only the right arm forward. Analyzing the palm to palm technique the student realizes that the name comes from the hands being placed 'palm to palm' and decides to further specialize in the palm to palm Rear naked no gi on the ground choke by focusing on the art of placing their palms together. After years of intensely studying and practicing how to place their palms together the student/master became the acknowledge world expert in "palming" a martial art that the student founded that specialized on placing the palms together. The master came to a sad end when challenged by a magician who specialized in the magic of 'palming'. Rumor has it that the master is now specializing in the art of placing a quarter on the palm, using his right thumb and pointing finger to exactly place the coin on his left palm. You see after much research he decided the quarter was better than the dime or nickel and much cheaper than the silver dollar, and most magicians were right handed you see.

Without caution a specialist can narrow down their field into nothing

Warmest regards
Brian King

 

[Touch Of Death]

There's something to be said for breadth of knowledge, that is to say, genrealism.

There is also something to be said for depth of knowledge, that is to say, specialism.

I really don't see a problem with being both.

I think the first UFC, was a reality check about specialism. They found a bunch of specialists and threw them in an environment better suited for grappling. What makes UFC different now, is that the fighters are more aware of what it might take to win, and unlike the original UFC, the fighters know what the other guy had for breakfast that morning. Originally, the UFC pitted specialist against each other, now its a bunch of generalists hailing from their original specialties.
Sean

 

[Chris Parker]

Yes, I did cite the early UFC, as that was part of my example that I was trying to use. I used that as IMO, that was one of the best gen/spec examples I thought of. Note in my first post, I said that in a strictly 1 dimensional ruleset, ie: A BJJ match, the stand up guy, the guy with no ground game, would be out of his element, and most likely lose. I went on to say that in the UFC, while we saw fighters that were all pretty much 1 dimensional, they weren't limited to play by one rule set or the other. LOL...funny he should say that, because we never saw him do anything but grapple...well, until he made a 'comeback' where he attempted striking, to no avail.

Yeah, I saw the mention of a BJJ match, which you then put a non-BJJ practitioner in, but honestly I thought that was just taking things too far. You might as well say that a tennis player will do better in a tennis match than a golfer. I get what you were aiming for, but the reality was a bit lost...

As for the last part...you said that the soft padding made it better for the grapplers. I am simply saying thats a poor excuse. What it really boils down to, is lack of preperation.

I don't think so... for one thing, there wasn't already a floor around (for the first one) for them to prepare for, so the only preparation that could be done was the art-specific training that they were already doing. And yes, the floor can make a huge difference.

 

[elder999]

To clarify: I've had lots of teachers, over the years. Some had borad knowledge, some only knew their chosen art-all were specialists-they had their chosen art. Two of them let me-at a time when it wasn't common-study with the other, for a variety of reasons. By nature of the arc of my life, I became both a specialist and a genaralist-a grappler and a striker-a tae kwon do man and a kyokushin karateka. Consequently, though, I've been open to seeking teaching wherevfer I might find it.

THe baddest little man I ever studied under was a specialist, though, like me, he'd "been around." THat's what he said, I've been around. :lol: Like another of my teachers, he was diminutive...maybe 5'4". At the time-college-I was competing in full contact, bareknuckle tournaments, Golden Gloves boxing, judo tournaments, point fighting tournaments, oh, and competitive powerlifting.

This little guy, the "specialist," who'd "been around," though? He said, "You may be big; you may be strong and fast, but I have"-holding up his index finger-"this".

And I believed him......I'll take depth of knowledge over breadth, any day-I'll take the master judoka as my backup for a barfight over almost any three MMA fighters-and I've gotten to know lots and lots of MMA gyms and their "generalists" over the last 8 or 10 years.....from Phoenix and Albuquerque to Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Miami, Dallas, Tokyo and Edmonton-and, while I have a lot of respect for all of them, and fun at all of them-all of the so-called "generalists" I've met over the years specialize in something, and, once they're done competing, they might be better served in going back to their "specialty."

Just my opinion........

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm not sure the padded floor of the UFC Octagon is really a net advantage for grapplers. If they were competing on a hardwood floor you'd probably see the grapplers execute a lot more knockouts via throws.

Also, there's plenty of old footage of Gracie family members winning challenge matches against strikers on non-padded floors.

The big advantage Royce had in the early days was that even though he is a specialist in ground fighting, he had studied the tactics of stand-up fighters and had a well-practiced game plan for negating their strikes and forcing the fight into his arena. In contrast, the standup fighters of the time had no knowledge of the ground game and no practice in avoiding it. After a few years that changed and you started seeing striking specialists who had learned just enough grappling to protect themselves so that they could execute their own game plan.

In my mind, this is what's necessary if you're going to be a specialist. You need to have at least enough skill and understanding of other areas of combat so that you can stay out of trouble and guide the fight into your preferred zone.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'll take depth of knowledge over breadth, any day-I'll take the master judoka as my backup for a barfight over almost any three MMA fighters.

Is this really a fair comparison, though? I can see the preference for a master judoka, but do you have the same preference for an average judoka over an average MMA fighter? What if you had the option for a master MMA fighter (think Anderson Silva or Fedor Emelianenko or even just Bas Rutten*) as your backup. Would you still have the strong preference for the judoka?

(*I don't think Bas could ever have beaten Silva or Emelianenko in the cage, but he does have a certain amount of bar fighting experience from what I've heard.)

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

There's something to be said for breadth of knowledge, that is to say, genrealism.

There is also something to be said for depth of knowledge, that is to say, specialism.

I really don't see a problem with being both.

Absolutely! You can be a generalist in many areas but a specialist in one or a few. There is absolutely no reason why you cannot be both.

 

[Kenlee25]

Honestly, I think being a generalist or a specialist is less about the body and more about the mind.

I recently start krav maga, and on the first day, after telling the instructor I had trained 11 years in TKD, the instructor replied "oh man, we have a LOT of bad habits to break". By the end of the class, he had complimented me a ton of times, I was doing the holds and escapes just as well as his other students, and had even used my instincts to get out of a headlock in a way even he had not taught us. He gave me a fist bump at the end of class, complimented me on my natural aggression and told me just how well I did for someone on their first day. Even the other students told me they could tell I was trained well.

The thing is, if that same instructor had actually visited the Taekwondo class I've been in for 11 year, he probably would have laughed all the way home. It's definitely not the same type of training.

Physically, I have a taekwondo practioner's body, a taekwondo practioner's muscle memory, but for the fast year or so I had been reconditioning my mind to a more self defense oriented one rather than sparring/competition, so that i could react in a more general way rather than specialized way, and apparently it worked.


I think this can apply to almost anyone. A strictly bjj guy with a strictly bjj mindset may take you to the ground, but if you start kneeing him in the balls/anus, smashing him in the head, and rolling over so that you are on top rather than trying to submit him, he will have a problem. And god forbid an opponent who instead of continues to fight on the ground trys to get up from a BJJ practioner. Even a BJJ specialist on the ground will have some problems if he does not think with a general mindset rather than what is strictly in class.

So all that is to say, I'm changing the initial theory to: The general minded survives, while the specialist ( or single minded ) do not.

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK since this post started I have restrained myself from posting this... but I am weakening and I need to NOT be serious at the moment so :EG:

Generally speaking I am a specialist and my specialty is generalization

 

[James Kovacich]

I think its important to specialize in at least 1 system and generalize in our weaker areas. A lot of people do this so technically, alot of people are both.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk

 

[Kwan Jang]

As I've read through this thread, I saw Rich Parsons mention how his work in the FMA's has helped with his ground fighting and grappling. I compete in Submission Grappling and No-Gi Jiu-Jitsu and have been fortunate enough to have placed in the top three at three world championships in the expert or BB divisions against opponents who often were former collegiate champions and even Olympic team members in wrestling prior to starting in BJJ. This in spite of the fact that I NEVER wrestled in High School or college. I credit my decades of training in the FMA's to compensate for this. Now, keep in mind that I grew up doing Judo and Japanese JJ as a kid and when I started training in Submissions and BJJ in the '90's, I was already a black belt in those systems and had a strong base. But the emphasis on superior positioning I learned in Escrima and Arnis is how I compensate for the superior positioning of the my opponents who grew up in wrestling. And I give full credit to the FMA's and what I was able to apply from what I learned there to make me a better grappler.

As far as generalist vs. specialist goes, in my experience, having a broader knowledge base as a generalist has helped me to see the bigger picture and connect the dots a lot easier IMO. I see it like getting your Bachelor's degree in many ways; you have your general ed, your major and your minor. Over the decades, I've competed in Judo as a kid, WTF TKD in my early-mid teens, boxing (amateur) and full contact/kickboxing (pro) in my late teens and early 20's, done both traditional and open/creative forms at open sport karate tournaments when I feel like it for over 30 years and grappling and BJJ tournaments the last few years. When I'm competing, it could be argued that I am a specialist in each of those areas at that time. I've also continued to cross train in all of those plus MMA, the FMA's and some Kobudo and American Kenpo as well, even when specializing in the sport I was competing in. Some I was just "good" at, some I was world-class. (Think getting A's and B's in general education courses and being ace-ing your major and minor).

My point is that I feel too many people limit themselves and they rarely make the connection between the skill sets and never see the "forest for the trees". IMO, I have a lifetime to train (40+ years to date so far) and I want to continue to learn, grow and push myself. OTOH, I am NOT an advocate for just taking samples of systems and never developing depth in any. I work from my base and build outward and try to "keep the plates spinning". Recently I posted videos from my 7th degree test in the members in motion section and you can see that my instructors (of 35 years) really strive for all their senior students to do this(BTW, I think this basically just echos what Elder and Brian have already posted about).

 

[Cyriacus]

So all that is to say, I'm changing the initial theory to: The general minded survives, while the specialist ( or single minded ) do not.

Aha - But now, how does the generalist decide what They are going to do, when They get past the initial part of the engagement? Do You take them down? Do You throw punches? Do you run away? Do you kick them? Do you throw them? Do you clinch them? The specialisation doesnt have to mean the only thing you do. The specialisation means what you specialise in. You can specialise in Striking, and know Grappling, for example.