The Depths of Honesty

[kenpo tiger]

Arabs aren't the only ones who carry grudges; they're just more bombastic about how they deliver their retribution. After all, they're the ones who cut off thieves' hands, aren't they?

 

[PeachMonkey]

And if the occupation ends, then what?

This is completely off topic, so I won't argue this further here, other than to say that I didn't mean to justify suicide bombings or the World Trade Center attack -- simply to help clarify the thinking of some of these people. The topic was honesty, and suicide bombers honestly feel they're serving a just cause.

 

[PeachMonkey]

And which 'perspective' would be closer to 'supportable reality?'

The US troops are there supporting the establishment of Democratic elections (maybe not perfectly run but at least grassroots) and the 'cowardly terrorist' is supporting a regime that would condone the restriction of feminine rights (arranged marriages, legalized murder by spousal brutallities) and the institution of laws such as mandatory beards for men (offenses punishable by beatings/execution) and the stoning/beating of women that are not escorted by a male companion because, in accordance with the extremist view of Islam - she could 'inspire' a man to do evil simply by being a woman.....

I'm not sure this thread is really about "supportable reality", is it?

I honestly don't know if that particular terrorist was a Shiite espousing the particular set of disgusting views you list, or a Ba'athist conducting retribution for the depradations and deaths under the sanction and bombing regimes of the UN, Bush I and II and Clinton; do you?

Regardless, I'm certain that person felt like an honest freedom-fighting warrior against occupying evildoers.

And that his victims felt honestly like men and women who just wanted something to eat and relax.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Arabs aren't the only ones who carry grudges; they're just more bombastic about how they deliver their retribution. After all, they're the ones who cut off thieves' hands, aren't they?

Jews are excellent about retribution as well, KT, they just tend to save it for the larger crimes. "Operation Wrath of God" ring a bell?

 

[kenpo tiger]

Peach, It's true. And I can carry a grudge with the best of them.

I think it's a matter of perspective. One (looks around furtively for Robertson) believes that one's faith/beliefs/cause is the true and only one. To maim and kill in the name of it isn't honest. It's using it as a crutch to justify one's evil.

 

[PeachMonkey]

I think it's a matter of perspective. One (looks around furtively for Robertson) believes that one's faith/beliefs/cause is the true and only one. To maim and kill in the name of it isn't honest. It's using it as a crutch to justify one's evil.

I think even that is circumstancial, isn't it?

One might argue that it depends on whether one is committing active evil in the world (such as going out in the world and flying planes into buildings filled with innocent people, which I doubt many people could argue is anything other than despicable) or whether someone is involved in a desperate insurgency to free one's nation from unwanted invaders, or occupiers.

 

[shesulsa]

I really did not intend for this to be a political discussion and I'm concerned about the vein in which it is going.

My intent was to discuss honesty in interpersonal relationships. Let us leave comments that could be construed as racist out if it.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Point taken, SheSulsa.

 

[JPR]

Some people I speak with would rather be frankly, totally, even brutally honest than refrain from speaking, evade revealing their true leanings or gracefully lie.

Others feel it can be appropriate to guard one's true leanings in the interest of protecting another's feelings or perhaps learning more (sometimes this can even change one's point of view).

In your opinion, is there such a thing as a white lie or are all lies damaging? Is holding one's tongue considered lying or does it depend on the situation?

Please express and discuss your opinions on the appropriateness of honesty, silence and slight prevarication.

Truth is a lot like a knife. In the hands of a skilled surgeon it can work wonders and save life. In the hands of a fool, it simply cuts, maims, scares and leaves a mess.

Directly to the questions you originally asked;

Sometimes being blunt can be so damaging that it is not worth it. You can see this especially in dealing with children. You can bluntly tell them the truth and watch them wilt. Or try being blunt with someone that is very emotional.

All lies are deceptions so I don’t really believe in white lies. I think that, if nothing else, to tell a white lie harms your integrity and erodes your trustworthiness.

Holding your tongue isn’t lying. It is your statement that you don’t want to address what ever at this moment.

The overriding principle I try to use is to speak the truth in love and to use the truth to build up, not to tear down a person. To do this you really have to stop and ask yourself some questions. What is my motive for saying this? In what way can I present this truth that will be the best for the hearer? What happens if I leave this truth unsaid? How important / critical is this issue to me?

You have, to me, another interesting question in your post. It is the one about learning more and perhaps changing your point of view. This seems like a separate question to me. I believe that it is critical to understand another’s point of view before I open my mouth. I have learned, and try to practice, a skill that is helpful in this. If I can listen to another’s point, understand it, and then make their point back to them in such a way that they “see” that I really understand, then I am ready to add my view to the issue(s).

When I listen first and understand, I may indeed change my mind. If I don’t, at least I am “synced up” with the person and more able to present my insight in a way that resonates with them. Also, if they feel like they are understood, they are more inclined now to listen to me, instead of simply waiting for me to stop so that they can try and make their point again since I obviously haven’t gotten it yet.

I am getting long again. I’ll stop here.

JPR

 

[Adept]

All lies are deceptions

But are all deceptions bad? And if so, why?

When I listen first and understand, I may indeed change my mind. If I don’t, at least I am “synced up” with the person and more able to present my insight in a way that resonates with them. Also, if they feel like they are understood, they are more inclined now to listen to me, instead of simply waiting for me to stop so that they can try and make their point again since I obviously haven’t gotten it yet.

I find most intelligent people do this. An intelligent person actually wants to contribute to the conversation, and is prepared to listen, rather than simply wait for their turn to speak.

 

[loki09789]

I'm not sure this thread is really about "supportable reality", is it?

I honestly don't know if that particular terrorist was a Shiite espousing the particular set of disgusting views you list, or a Ba'athist conducting retribution for the depradations and deaths under the sanction and bombing regimes of the UN, Bush I and II and Clinton; do you?

Regardless, I'm certain that person felt like an honest freedom-fighting warrior against occupying evildoers.

And that his victims felt honestly like men and women who just wanted something to eat and relax.

No it isn't about 'supportable reality' but it is about 'honesty' and if the person who felt personally justified was feed a line of BS that was much longer/deeper than could be 'honestly believed' if he/she was given the chance to see a comparison/contrast of the POV's, then the question is whether they would still have chosen the path they did. How can this or any person doesn't have opportunity for an 'honest' study of the motives/actions/rationale really have an 'honest' perspective? Notice I said opportunity to study, as people of democratic nations have and not members of a Political/Religiously driven state (Al Q type).

I am not 'certain' about how this person felt to be truthful. And, targetting these troops for the current campaign as retribution/revenge for past actions - is that an 'honest motive' or more damage caused by damaged motives?

He could very well have been told "either do this or we will kill your entire family" as a motive - which is far from the 'noble motives' of a person who believes they are targeting combatants.

 

[loki09789]

I started a thread about the 10 Commandments: "Continuum or Rules" and didn't get as many comments on the idea of continuum as I did about the history of how the 10 Cts were applied through history. Enlightening, but not what I was looking for in the end.

I think this idea of "The Depths of Honesty" is a chance to look at the Continuum of Morals/Ethics in the same way.

Honesty is only one of many positive traits of a person/culture. It has to be balanced/reconciled/applied in conjunction/comparison to the others in each moment.

In any given moment, which is better "honesty" or "loyalty" and other 'moral quandries' that are the source of movies, poems, and life crisis all the time.

 

[shesulsa]

So here's a classic question to further this discussion:

You find out your best work friend has been taking office supplies home - pens, pencils, sticky notes, computer paper, binders, even staplers and hole punches home. It's once in a while, but you know it adds up.

Are you honest enough to report it and get your buddy (who does a stellar job, btw) fired?

Why/Why not?

 

[OUMoose]

So here's a classic question to further this discussion:

You find out your best work friend has been taking office supplies home - pens, pencils, sticky notes, computer paper, binders, even staplers and hole punches home. It's once in a while, but you know it adds up.

Are you honest enough to report it and get your buddy (who does a stellar job, btw) fired?

Why/Why not?

No, because everyone in the office has done that at one time or another. Would you report yourself for taking a pen since it was over your ear when you walked out of the office? Probably not. Does that make it right? Not really.

Now if you saw them loading a crate of the stuff straight from the loading dock, that might be grounds to talk to someone. If you turn them in for grabbing a pack of stickey notes here and there, or a pen, that's poor form. Maybe talk to the person first (ESPECIALLY if it's a friend) and find out what's going on. Have an "intervention" if you're feeling so inclined.

 

[Ray]

So here's a classic question to further this discussion:

You find out your best work friend has been taking office supplies home - pens, pencils, sticky notes, computer paper, binders, even staplers and hole punches home. It's once in a while, but you know it adds up.

Are you honest enough to report it and get your buddy (who does a stellar job, btw) fired?

Why/Why not?

Yes. If I had a friend and knew that he/she was stealing, then yes I would report him/her. If my friend report to me then I would fire him/her.

Why? I'm part of management.

 

[Melissa426]

"Everybody does it"?
Puh-leaze.
Worst excuse in the world for what amounts to petty theft. Is it OK to take towels from hotel rooms too?:idunno:

Yes, by all means, SS, talk to your friend. Lost revenue in supplies means fewer raises and other perks for you and other employees and it is not fair, let alone honest. Maybe if you raise it from that angle, she won't be too offended. More than likely, she will keep doing it, but just hide it from you better.
BTW, if an employee was doing this to me, I would not fire them, for this one thing, especially if they really are good at their job. But I would let them know they are being watched.

Yes, I am self-employed, of course I'd feel this way. :uhyeah: But when I worked at a hospital during college, I didn't help myself to various and sundry medical supplies, that I could have easily such as a whole box of band-aids, ace wraps, hydrogen peroxide, betadine, antibiotic ointment, alcohol pads, etc etc. An occasional band-aid, yes, with permission. If you work at DQ, can you make yourself an ice cream cone when you want to?

 

[shesulsa]

All right, so how about another classic question:

You find that one member of a couple whom you are friends with is cheating on his/her spouse - do you tell the other? Does this depend on which one you are best friends with?

Explain.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

All right, so how about another classic question:

You find that one member of a couple whom you are friends with is cheating on his/her spouse - do you tell the other? Does this depend on which one you are best friends with?

Explain.

Oh wow.

That's a really tough one.

For me, I would tread VERY LIGHTLY, or not at all, on other folks relationships - unless I were asked explicitly for advice/help/etc.

If I knew the cheater much better - I'd talk to him or her first, if I felt that would be possible without them blowing up in my face.

If I knew the cheatee much better - I'm honestly not sure.

If I were friends with both - again, I'm not sure. Most likely though, I would say nothing. Honest? Not completely. Cautious? definetly. Hopeful? That too.

 

[Shu2jack]

I have always felt that honestly, tempered with the ability to be discrete and softening the words to the level the recipiant can handle, is the best policy.

You find out your best work friend has been taking office supplies home - pens, pencils, sticky notes, computer paper, binders, even staplers and hole punches home. It's once in a while, but you know it adds up.

Are you honest enough to report it and get your buddy (who does a stellar job, btw) fired?

Talk to your friend. Tell them that you know what he/she is doing, that it is wrong, and it needs to stop. If it happens again report him/her. If you don't you are aiding in the theft of office supplies and if it comes out that you knew about it and didn't report it you are in trobule as well. You shouldn't lose your job because of somebody else's wrong doings.

You find that one member of a couple whom you are friends with is cheating on his/her spouse - do you tell the other? Does this depend on which one you are best friends with?

Explain.

I hate to get involved in other people's personal lives, but I would feel like I was allowing and aiding someone to cheat and trample on another person's feelings if I didn't speak up. Is it my buisness? No. Are they my friend? Yes, and part of being a friend is having each other's back.

 

[Schtankybampo]

Several situations where the "white lie" is not only called for, but socially demanded:


"Why, yes, he's absolutely the most adorable baby I have ever seen!"
-instead of-
"Good Lord, is it supposed to look like raw hamburger?!?"

"We all remember Frank fondly, he was a wonderful man and a loving husband"
-rather than-
"Thank God that old SOB is dead, eh? What a jerk he was!"

and...

"No, Grandma, the roast isn't too tough! It's just as delicious as it was last year!"
-as opposed to-
"Screw this! I'm going to In&Out!"

Some people like to hide behind the concept of "Brutally Honest" when in fact, they are just hurtful people who enjoy hiding behind a facade of "biblical morality"

Not to yank the bible into things, I'm not qualified, but the commandment is "Thou shalt not bear false witness..." which speaks specifically of "No, it wasn't me that stole it, it was BOB!"


M