The Depths of Honesty

[shesulsa]

Some people I speak with would rather be frankly, totally, even brutally honest than refrain from speaking, evade revealing their true leanings or gracefully lie.

Others feel it can be appropriate to guard one's true leanings in the interest of protecting another's feelings or perhaps learning more (sometimes this can even change one's point of view).

In your opinion, is there such a thing as a white lie or are all lies damaging? Is holding one's tongue considered lying or does it depend on the situation?

Please express and discuss your opinions on the appropriateness of honesty, silence and slight prevarication.

 

[Melissa426]

I work in healthcare, where I believe complete honesty is vital to providing good patient care.
If someone asks," is this gonna hurt?," the answer is "yes, but it may not be so bad depending on your pain tolerance. "
I have been asked by family members to lie to relatives about their condition...
"don't tell Grandpa that Grandma has cancer, it will only upset him."
"don't tell my 16 y.o. daughter she has an STD, don't you know it's prom night!"

At TKD the other night, I got kicked in the shins by a 12 y.o. but not purposefully. (my shin was in the wrong place at the wrong time)
He asked if I was OK and instead of saying "no, it hurts like he11," I said "I'll be fine, don't worry about it." I evaded his question. Is that dishonesty?

Two days later, I have a bruise the size of Rhode Island --- OK, that's an exaggeration, technically a lie.

When the nice policeman asks me politely, why were you doing 65 in a 50 mph zone, I always tell him the truth.

I don't believe that lying in order to spare another's feelings ever really does anyone any good in the long run. I have seen my instructor have to tell little kids who have been coming to class regularly for months and want to get a new colored belt that they aren't ready. If he lies, and says they are OK to test, what will happen is that they will flunk their test, and that makes the GM upset, the parents upset, and our school look bad.

Peace,
Melissa

 

[modarnis]

Complete honsesty is great. One can be honest but tactful. If you see someone who is having a bad day you can voice your concers by asking:

1. Is everything going okay?

or

2. What's up your a** today?

My guess is one of the messages will get received differently.

 

[michaeledward]

I won't go into too much depth here ... but my friend Bill put it this way.

.... became willing to make amends to them all {those we had harmed}.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

To use 'The Truth' in a way that offends another is to assert the ego where humility is needed; to put my concerns above the concerns of another. In these situations, silence, perhaps is a better choice than telling a 'white lie'.

Mike

 

[TigerWoman]

i agree with michaeledward. Humility and the concerns of others rather than your own can guide you whether you should be blunt about the truth or just be silent.

I really hate white lies though, especially when found out. And then I say why? Why say you had too much work when you really were doing something else. Really silly and that is a sign to me of their integrity. That is really what we are talking about.

Then there is the deeper issues of integrity where you have to speak up even though you know that it is going to cost you dearly. I've had occasion to do that three times in my life. One resulted in leaving a job I loved and one other, probably my second degree belt and the other I will remain silent. They were all still, worth it and I can sleep at night. TW

 

[someguy]

Some times its ok to bend the truth. If it is for the sake of a joke then it is ok. Then it isn't really lieing as its telling a joke.
If you have to lie to get out of say fighting then it can be acceptable.

If a mad man wants to konw where your friend is will you tell them the truth? Not I and I won't tell them nothing either. I don't really know what I will do.

 

[MA-Caver]

Any lie is damaging no matter what the intent.
Small little lies chip away a trust in a relationship (family, friends, lovers, co-workers, whatever!) just as much as a bold flat faced one.
Some would argue it's human nature to lie. We lie because of fear. We lie because we assume the responsibility for another's feelings. We lie because it's easier than the truth. We lie because we're selfish, we lie because we can get away with it, we lie out of desperation and on and on with countless of reasons.

To do the little white lies; "Oh your hair/dress looks fine dear." "No that didn't hurt." "I don't care whatever." All they do is dis-service a particular relationship. Ben Franklin said "Honesty is the best policy." and he was right. Bible scriptures read: "The truth shall set you free..." An old proverb mentions to "Tell the truth and shame the devil." These little things that we've heard throughout our lives, in our hearts we know these truths to be self-evident (pardon the pun). We've seen them in action in real life. But we still lie.
I think the biggest reasons why we lie to one-another is because of fear and assumption of the responsibility of another's feelings.
We did something wrong (ironically in some situations is a lie unto itself) and when confronted about it by a significant other or authority figure we are afraid of the consenquences and thus we lie hoping to avoid the trouble. Kids do it a lot because they're often not taught by their parent/teachers that telling the truth is a hellva lot better even though they will still get punished for whatever it is they did wrong (broken item, fights, whatever!). This habit goes grows with us into adulthood. With dilligence and (self) discipline we over come our fears and learn to tell the truth regardless of the consenquences and we learn NOT to screw up. The result our lives are a little or a lot better.
We also lie because we assume the responsiblity for another's feelings. A wife asks her husband if her dress is alright or her hair is okay for an evening out. The husband looks and while he doesn't agree with her choice will say: "You look fine hunny" because he assumes she will pout on a negative answer and go change and thus further delay their plans.
As with Melissa426's post <snipped>

At TKD the other night, I got kicked in the shins by a 12 y.o. but not purposefully. (my shin was in the wrong place at the wrong time)
He asked if I was OK and instead of saying "no, it hurts like he11," I said "I'll be fine, don't worry about it." I evaded his question. Is that dishonesty?Two days later, I have a bruise the size of Rhode Island --- OK, that's an exaggeration, technically a lie.

imo she didn't want to hurt the 12 year old's feelings and told the lie that she was ok so they wouldn't feel bad and continue with the lesson for the sake of learning. So the 12 yr. old might or might not see the bruise but technically a lie.
A child lies to the parent on breaking a valuable in the home, they assume their parents' feelings so they won't make them mad. Blames the sibling because they're afraid their lie won't be good enough.

The reasons we go to such lengths to presume how someone feels are varied as the wild flowers in a field. It's something subconciously and conciously taught. "Don't tell grandma her dress is ugly... it'll hurt her feelings." and so forth. It takes a while to overcome the stigma of this assumption and we also do that because we are afraid of that they will think of us when we tell the truth.
On line it's a hellva lot easier to tell the truth if we are not afraid of what they think because we can hide behind screen names and false profiles. Problem with on line telling what we think is that we cannot project the tonal quality of our statements (EXCEPT BY USING CAPS WHICH ARE CONSIDERED YELLING! ).
Face to face however we can see the reaction and it may not always be what we were wanting/hoping it to be. :idunno: well, can't help that... and it's one of the hardest things to learn sometimes. It's hard because we care, because many of us are decent human beings with love for our fellows in our hearts and thus want to see them happy. So we tell those little white lies to spare them the grief.
Tact and diplomacy, something that Mike was talking about. To admit to something we did in the past and try to make up for it. Sometimes... it's not always possible.

To use 'The Truth' in a way that offends another is to assert the ego where humility is needed; to put my concerns above the concerns of another. In these situations, silence, perhaps is a better choice than telling a 'white lie'.

That is a very noble way to live and something definitely to strive for I agree. But unfortunately not always possible.

Some times its ok to bend the truth. If it is for the sake of a joke then it is ok. Then it isn't really lieing as its telling a joke.
If you have to lie to get out of say fighting then it can be acceptable.
If a mad man wants to konw where your friend is will you tell them the truth? Not I and I won't tell them nothing either. I don't really know what I will do.

Bend the truth for the sake of a joke... hmm, guess it depends upon the joke right? Been there and done that. But I think there are ways to do it without bending the truth. Just have to think about it and eventually one will find a way.
Lives are in danger from a psychotic, so tell them a lie to spare the others...what if they find out you're lying? Hell to pay right? The Status Quo factor. That's a toughie alright.
Is it okay to lie to a bad person as opposed to lying to a good person? That makes us judges don't it? Maybe we're right but we still assume righteousness when we say this is a bad person. Whew, what a sticky huh?

I recall a funny line from an old TV show "Wings"... the mechanic was asked a question: "When is it okay to tell a lie?" he stammered for a moment and thought and then answered "W-when you can't remember the truth?"

 

[Ender]

We had to come up with a definiton of lying for a business class a few years ago and we came up with this:

"A deliberate deception for self serving or evil purposes"

A mistake is not a lie, neither is a point of view. But truth/lying can have different shades. For example, If you lived in Germany during the 30's and 40's, and your daughter/son married a Jew, your best friend was a Jew, or simply a neighbor was a Jew . Then the Nazi's come to your door and ask you have seen any Jews. is it a lie to say no?...or is it simply the right thing to do?

 

[Tgace]

Sometimes I lie quite a bit at work..

"Ma'am I need to speak to your son, he was involved in a minor fender bender and I need to ask him a question about it."

In reality he has a felony arrest warrant...effective technique. Sometimes I lie to a suspect to gain compliance without scaring/alerting him which could result in a fight or chase. Of course there are things I cant lie about because it would violate constitutional rights.

The lie in and of itself isnt evil..its the intent of the liar.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Intent is important - as is respect for the other person/people with whom you are communicating.

I am guilty of lying most often because I do not want to bother someone else, quite frankly. I'd rather say I'm fine - especially to more casual acquaintances, rather than the few good friends I have - that go into the details of why I'm annoyed, or feel bad, or whatever.

I think Melissa and tgace both posted important points about the line of work you are in as well. I certainly would want to hear the whole truth from my caregivers - and the police may often have to lie a bit, or perhaps omit information, or remain silent on certain points - in order to catch someone.

I have met a few people who live by the policy of being "brutally honest". I can respect them for that. I would be lying if I said sometimes my little feelings weren't hurt by people like that, however. Sometimes I'd rather NOT know that you think I make myself look dumb in public, etc.

 

[someguy]

When I'm bending the truth for the sake of a joke it becomes rather obvious.
If a person kicks my shin by accedent then my response is something like no problem. It will heal. Then you keep going.

 

[someguy]

Another thought that just occured to me deals with santa clause the easter bunny and all of them.
Think about child hood.
I'll leave you to come to what ever you want to about that abecause cartoons are on(adult swim)

 

[shesulsa]

Intent is important - as is respect for the other person/people with whom you are communicating.

Oh, I SO agree. One's intentions surely belie the outcome when all cards are finally played. This moves forward to applications on the job, on the mat, in the bedroom.

I think certain situations command complete honesty and the medical field is one. I don't want a cock-and-bull story about my health - I'm a big girl - give it to me straight. Though, consideration must be given for some younger children and in special circumstances.

The police are allowed to use untruths in the attempt to illicite confessions from suspects. Would any of you use this kind of a tactic in your own lives, relationships, jobs or MA clubs?

 

[Melissa426]

Any lie is damaging no matter what the intent.
Small little lies chip away a trust in a relationship (family, friends, lovers, co-workers, whatever!) just as much as a bold flat faced one.
Some would argue it's human nature to lie. We lie because of fear. We lie because we assume the responsibility for another's feelings. We lie because it's easier than the truth. We lie because we're selfish, we lie because we can get away with it, we lie out of desperation and on and on with countless of reasons.


I recall a funny line from an old TV show "Wings"... the mechanic was asked a question: "When is it okay to tell a lie?" he stammered for a moment and thought and then answered "W-when you can't remember the truth?"

Great quote from "Wings!" :ultracool

I haven't actually read this, so if anyone has, please feel free to correct me. But I heard that in "Dante's Inferno" the 7th circle of He11 (for the worst sinners) is reserved for those who lie because of the damage not only to your own soul but to the soul of those you lie to.

Peace,
Melissa

 

[Adept]

We had to come up with a definiton of lying for a business class a few years ago and we came up with this:

"A deliberate deception for self serving or evil purposes"

A mistake is not a lie, neither is a point of view. But truth/lying can have different shades. For example, If you lived in Germany during the 30's and 40's, and your daughter/son married a Jew, your best friend was a Jew, or simply a neighbor was a Jew . Then the Nazi's come to your door and ask you have seen any Jews. is it a lie to say no?...or is it simply the right thing to do?

I would have shortened your definition to just "A deliberate deception". In the case of the nazis, saying you havent seen any jews is still a lie, even if it is the right thing to do. A lie is a lie, but not all lies are bad.

What it basically comes down to is predicted outcomes. You weigh the options of all the things you could say, and choose the best one.

 

[Ray]

I would have shortened your definition to just "A deliberate deception". In the case of the nazis, saying you havent seen any jews is still a lie, even if it is the right thing to do. A lie is a lie, but not all lies are bad.

What it basically comes down to is predicted outcomes. You weigh the options of all the things you could say, and choose the best one.

If more German citizens would have spoken/acted out against the mentality that murdered the Jews, then maybe the killings would have been prevented or mitigated. Certainly, one is not compelled to answer all questions asked; the answer to the question "have you seen any Jews?" may well should have been "it is a terrible thing that is taken place, and I am against it."

Now, would a German citizen have been killed for giving such an answer (or not replying to the question)? Probably. Would it have prevented many of the murders? Maybe, maybe not. But the evasive lie that saves one friend may be the lie that allows the brutal regime to continue to kill others.

For a just cause, we need to stand up and be counted, even it is uncomfortable, even if it means pain or death. It is a better alternative than trying to justify lying...I am against moral relativism; I believe that there is a moral and ethical choice to be made in every situation - a right and a wrong; I don't believe in infinite shades of gray between the choices.

But that's just me.

 

[loki09789]

Some people I speak with would rather be frankly, totally, even brutally honest than refrain from speaking, evade revealing their true leanings or gracefully lie.

Others feel it can be appropriate to guard one's true leanings in the interest of protecting another's feelings or perhaps learning more (sometimes this can even change one's point of view).

In your opinion, is there such a thing as a white lie or are all lies damaging? Is holding one's tongue considered lying or does it depend on the situation?

Please express and discuss your opinions on the appropriateness of honesty, silence and slight prevarication.

context and deliver.

I think that during a job interview, a little 'white lie' (as in embellishing your actions with colorful descriptions) is par for the course.

If my wife asks me if I find Shania Twain attractive or the check out girl or what ever, I am honest and say 'yes' because the lie would only show through (so I am being honest NOT entirely because it is the 'right' thing to do, but partly because either answer could create complications and it is easier to deal with the lesser of the two complications if it is based on an honest answer). During the inevitable "I don't feel so pretty right now" discussion when such questions come up, I can always say how I find her attractive and how I chose to marry her and that attraction is a natural/biological thing - it is what I do with it that counts and I choose to do nothing because I am attracted AND love her/my life with her and losing that is not worth it.....

Better than trying to push a lie of "No one is prettier than you, my love...." I know there are WAYYYYYY better looking men out there than I, so I would see through that one in a minute if the roles were reversed.

In court, your best bet is to tell the truth because ANY lie will create incredibility and blow your sides case....

If my son asks how he did in his last hockey game and he really sucked, I can deliver my honest answer diplomatically so that I am being honest AND respecting his feelings/expressing my love for him at the same time.

Option one: "You sucked, you were lazy, you looked like you weren't even trying...."

Option two: "I've seen you play better, were you tired today? You looked like you weren't as 'on' as you have been in other games. I did notice that you were still recieving passes well even though you looked slightly out of it."

Both are honest, neither is a 'white lie' (unless you think taking my emotional frustration/disappointment in his performance out on him is more 'honest').

 

[Adept]

For a just cause, we need to stand up and be counted, even it is uncomfortable, even if it means pain or death. It is a better alternative than trying to justify lying.

So given the option of lying, which would save your life, those of your family, and those of your jewish friends, you would rather 'stand up and be counted'?

You would rather condemn yourself, your wife and your children to death, than tell a lie which would prevent that from happening? All for the sake of not telling a lie?

I find such a decision to be absurd.

I am against moral relativism; I believe that there is a moral and ethical choice to be made in every situation - a right and a wrong; I don't believe in infinite shades of gray between the choices.

Well, thats your opinion. But what about when you and I disagree on the correct moral decision to make? Who trumps who? Is your right more right than mine? Can we refer to a neutral third party who will arbitrate for us?

I agree that there are moral decisions to be made, I simply disagree that everyone should be expected to choose the same path, and I strongly disagree that there is one, correct path, and that all others are completely evil, as you would suggest by your disbelief in shades of grey.

 

[Ray]

So given the option of lying, which would save your life, those of your family, and those of your jewish friends, you would rather 'stand up and be counted'?

You would rather condemn yourself, your wife and your children to death, than tell a lie which would prevent that from happening? All for the sake of not telling a lie?

I find such a decision to be absurd.

You may not have read the first two paragraphs of my posting. I didn't say that the question had to be answered with the location of my Jewish friends - I said if more German citizens had spoken or acted against the brutal Nazi regime then maybe the killings could have been stopped or reduced. As far as my family being condemned to death: all living things perish. Are some things worth dying for?

Well, thats your opinion. But what about when you and I disagree on the correct moral decision to make? Who trumps who? Is your right more right than mine? Can we refer to a neutral third party who will arbitrate for us?

I agree that there are moral decisions to be made, I simply disagree that everyone should be expected to choose the same path, and I strongly disagree that there is one, correct path, and that all others are completely evil, as you would suggest by your disbelief in shades of grey.[/QUOTE]
There is no suggestion, stated or implied, that I think anyone who disagrees with me is evil...the word "evil" doesn't appear in my post. Please, do not mis-represent me. You are welcome to hold your belief that there may be more than one correct path in a given situation and I respect your opinion. If fact, you're probably right, there are probably more than only 2 choices in many situations; maybe they can be classed into: worst, bad, immaterial, good, better and best. And obviously, everyone needs to weigh the alternatives and make their own decision.

 

[Adept]

You may not have read the first two paragraphs of my posting. I didn't say that the question had to be answered with the location of my Jewish friends - I said if more German citizens had spoken or acted against the brutal Nazi regime then maybe the killings could have been stopped or reduced. As far as my family being condemned to death: all living things perish. Are some things worth dying for?

I dont think most German citizens would have wanted to, and any such show of resistance would have been crushed. But lets not get off topic.

Yes, all things must die. And yes, some things are worth dying for. But I dont believe in sacrificing innocents without a very, very good reason. You would be tortured, your jewish friends killed as well, and your family would die without changing anything.

There is no suggestion, stated or implied, that I think anyone who disagrees with me is evil...the word "evil" doesn't appear in my post.

Your words:

"I am against moral relativism; I believe that there is a moral and ethical choice to be made in every situation - a right and a wrong; I don't believe in infinite shades of gray between the choices"

If there can be no moral relativism, and no shades of grey, then there are only two choices. Right and wrong. Anyone who does not select the right choice, by default must select the wrong choice. Without shades of grey, or levels of 'right' and 'wrong', then each choice must be the extreme. The very best choice, or the very worst choice.

If fact, you're probably right, there are probably more than only 2 choices in many situations; maybe they can be classed into: worst, bad, immaterial, good, better and best. And obviously, everyone needs to weigh the alternatives and make their own decision.

How does this weigh against your earlier position that there are no shades of grey?