The Death Penalty: Yes or No?
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michaeledward
Grandmaster
The death penalty is completely un-necessary.
The State should not be in the business of taking lives. Even if there could be 100% certainty of guilt. We know that there can not be that 100% certainty of guilt. The State should therefore err on the side of caution. Life imprisonment is possible, and is therefore a satisfactory measure to protect society.
The courts recently ruled that cocaine sentences should have parity ~ regardless of whether the drug is powder form, or crystalized form. This is a step in the correct direction to 'equal justice under the law'.
Removing the death penalty is a next step in providing 'equal justice under the law', and it is long overdue.
The State should not be in the business of taking lives. Even if there could be 100% certainty of guilt. We know that there can not be that 100% certainty of guilt. The State should therefore err on the side of caution. Life imprisonment is possible, and is therefore a satisfactory measure to protect society.
The courts recently ruled that cocaine sentences should have parity ~ regardless of whether the drug is powder form, or crystalized form. This is a step in the correct direction to 'equal justice under the law'.
Removing the death penalty is a next step in providing 'equal justice under the law', and it is long overdue.
newGuy12
Master of Arts
Right. You should not kill them, but lock them up somewhere where they can no longer kill anyone else. Then, everyone out here is safe.
Because if you believe in G-d, then, you see, you have to let the person live out their life, so that you will maximize the chance that they will see the error of their ways, and make peace with the Higher Power before they die!
Because if you believe in G-d, then, you see, you have to let the person live out their life, so that you will maximize the chance that they will see the error of their ways, and make peace with the Higher Power before they die!
And what if you believe that by killing them, you're helping to prevent them racking up still more bad karma? :idunno:
newGuy12
Master of Arts
Yes, I know, but, how much bad action could someone take while locked up? In my way of thinking, society would have to overhaul the prison system. Now, it is simply a business, to make money.
For example, there are studies which show that an OVERWHELMING majority of criminals who do violent crimes are drunk or high when they do them. They are loaded!
This seems to suggest that there are addictions / alcoholism which contribute to this bad behaviour. Now, what resources are spent to address this problem? Not very much (I heard about this from a guy who has worked in the field of alcoholism and drug addiction recovery for over 30 years).
But, if you consider that this karmic action that these people are taking are going to have a negative affect on them, then you may as well let it play out, right? Why? Because if they do not know their lesson now, how will they in the next incarnation? They will only know the same, no? There is nothing to be LOST by not killing them, unless I am missing something, misunderstanding something, which may very well be the case.
I had often thought in my younger years that I could not be a person that could decide to put someone to death. I didn't think I could do that.
I have kids now. Anyone hurt them, I would want the ******* to pay with his life. I think I could even flick the switch to be honest.
Different stages in your life makes your outlook different.
I have kids now. Anyone hurt them, I would want the ******* to pay with his life. I think I could even flick the switch to be honest.
Different stages in your life makes your outlook different.
Some people are beyond redemption. It's not that we aren't forgiving them... it's them who just don't want (or even care for) the forgiveness and want to keep doing what they've done. Serial murderers and rapists and repeat child molesters and so on.
Locking them up for the rest of their/our lives doesn't help them in any redeeming manner. None. They sit and live on free meals and a free place to sleep with free medical and free basically everything except of course the freedom to do what they were locked up for in the first place... but then knowing prison they'll find other ways.
Sometimes by ending their lives we are doing them (and the victim's families) a favor. They may be able to understand and appreciate what wrong they've done more because they realize that they cannot go back and repent for their wrongs/crimes/sins and THAT makes them understand.
ULTIMATE Punishment is best left up to G-d I agree, but present punishment is our God-given right (in this country anyway) by our laws and constitution. Letting these beasts, who have given up their humanity by committing these crimes upon humanity (their fellow humans), letting them continue to live and gloat and relish the memories of their crimes over and over and over again without regret/remorse/sorrow/guilt...
Some do have all the regret/remorse/sorrow/guilt and some who are truly sorry will want the death penalty rather than live with the guilt and the shame, they would understand the price they need to pay to make things right.
I say yes to the death penalty if they are absolutely and positively without question guilty. These are the Gacy's, Bundys, Dahmlers, Lucas' and so forth.
The guy who recently confessed to 9 murders over a period of years ... if found without a shadow of a doubt that it was indeed him then by all means.
Locking them up for the rest of their/our lives doesn't help them in any redeeming manner. None. They sit and live on free meals and a free place to sleep with free medical and free basically everything except of course the freedom to do what they were locked up for in the first place... but then knowing prison they'll find other ways.
Sometimes by ending their lives we are doing them (and the victim's families) a favor. They may be able to understand and appreciate what wrong they've done more because they realize that they cannot go back and repent for their wrongs/crimes/sins and THAT makes them understand.
ULTIMATE Punishment is best left up to G-d I agree, but present punishment is our God-given right (in this country anyway) by our laws and constitution. Letting these beasts, who have given up their humanity by committing these crimes upon humanity (their fellow humans), letting them continue to live and gloat and relish the memories of their crimes over and over and over again without regret/remorse/sorrow/guilt...
Some do have all the regret/remorse/sorrow/guilt and some who are truly sorry will want the death penalty rather than live with the guilt and the shame, they would understand the price they need to pay to make things right.
I say yes to the death penalty if they are absolutely and positively without question guilty. These are the Gacy's, Bundys, Dahmlers, Lucas' and so forth.
The guy who recently confessed to 9 murders over a period of years ... if found without a shadow of a doubt that it was indeed him then by all means.
My thoughts exactly....
Personally, I'm a supporter of the death penalty and a majority of it is for that reason. By the time that someone makes it to death row, they have been through an appeal process, a jury of their peers, and the judicial system which is pretty thrifty with handing out death penalties. For all of the horrible crimes that happen, there are a very small number of death sentences (or ones that are actually carried out). If a famliy member was the subject of one of these crimes, the death penalty is pretty good closure. Plus, there are lots of ways to get OUT of jail. There is also plenty of research to back up the fact that prisons do not reform inmates as well as we think they do.
Now, I am a supporter of more equality in the judicial system. My feeling is that the sentencing system should be subject to more strict criteria rather than being left mostly up to the judge. For example, the UCMJ has a very narrow range of penalties allowed for any infraction. Commanders then choose a penalty from that range, depending on the severity of the infraction, but they cannot stray from that range.
One area that I'm obviously underinformed in is the costs associated with things. I'm not clear on how death row inmates cost more than an average inmate?
It's the appeals process that makes the death penalty cost more than life in prison.
Jeff
LawDog
Master Black Belt
If they have been found guilty and have lost all of their legal appeals then yes.
Their trail, served jail time, lawers, appeals etc. have/will cost the tax payer a very large portion of their tax dollar. New jails will have to be built, new guards will have to be hired and this ever expanding cycle will continue.
These criminals do not care about the lives that they have taken or ruined.
:knight:
Their trail, served jail time, lawers, appeals etc. have/will cost the tax payer a very large portion of their tax dollar. New jails will have to be built, new guards will have to be hired and this ever expanding cycle will continue.
These criminals do not care about the lives that they have taken or ruined.
:knight:
So are there more appeals allowed for Death sentences? How does the appeal process compare?
I agree with LawDog and I'm also with Lisa anybody ever does anything to my childern forget the death penalty, I would kill them myself and then ask to be put to rest with the satifaction of doing what is right by me.
If there is the slightest hint of doubt that the person is guilty - then no, they should not be subjected to the death penalty. People who are undeniably guilty - those caught in the act, or those against whom the evidence is incontrovertible - who have committed capital crimes, such as violent rape, pederasty, and murder (although that list is not exclusive) should be put to death. There are still exceptions even to this: those who murder in self-defense, those who truly do not understand the consequences of their actions, those who are mentally ill, etc. The first group deserves assistance from those who failed to protect them; the latter two deserve treatment.
The number of condemned criminals who have "found God" while on death row does nothing to dissuade me from this opinion; it's much easier to "find God" when one doesn't have a choice. I see no reason why someone found guilty of the type of crimes listed above should spend his or her life living at my expense. Certainly, the life of a death row inmate is not pleasant - but anyone who lands there deservedly should have the least pleasant experience that can be provided, as a minimal return for their heinous acts.
The question becomes, then, what to do with the people for whom there is that hint of a doubt? The justice system should devote itself to a twofold task: finding the absolute truth, and doing its best to rehabilitate, rather than warehouse, those who enter the system.
The number of condemned criminals who have "found God" while on death row does nothing to dissuade me from this opinion; it's much easier to "find God" when one doesn't have a choice. I see no reason why someone found guilty of the type of crimes listed above should spend his or her life living at my expense. Certainly, the life of a death row inmate is not pleasant - but anyone who lands there deservedly should have the least pleasant experience that can be provided, as a minimal return for their heinous acts.
The question becomes, then, what to do with the people for whom there is that hint of a doubt? The justice system should devote itself to a twofold task: finding the absolute truth, and doing its best to rehabilitate, rather than warehouse, those who enter the system.
And finding God doesn't necessarily make someone good. It doesn't even make them sorry....in fact, its pretty easy for someone to say "I found God! Now let me out of here." That's a pretty personal thing, no proof and really, makes no difference. If you killed 12 people after kidnapping them and torturing them....you can find all the God you want, but you should still fry for it.
I agree... but I've just seen too many appeals on the basis of "I found God in prison, I'm a new person, I deserve another chance" - anyone can find God after a major ****-up that leads to a death sentence, but I see no reason why that should change the outcome; if anything, I would think that anyone who "finds God" after committing a capital crime would want to repent in any fashion required by law... not use it as a rationale to excuse past indiscretions.
Well said..
Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
The only way to be 100% certain that person will never again commit a murder, rape, etc, is to remove them from the living. Very few dead people have killed again.
The Fifth Amendment specifically provides for the death penalty: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Therefore, with due process, a person can be executed.
Personally, I don't like my tax dollars paying for the hundreds of thousands of people in prisons. IMHO, these criminals are treated far too kindly and should be forced to work to earn their keep. The Thirteenth Amendment specifically allows this: Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.Thus, convicts can be used as slaves and or as involuntary servants(although, I don't really grasp the difference...)
In the late nineties, when both Texas and Florida were executing murderers as fast as the appellant process allowed, both states saw a decline in murders.
Were someone to "find God" on death row, that should never be a deterrent to carrying out their sentence. In the case of Christians, for example, after their execution their souls would be in Heaven, so they really have nothing to fear from death, not to mention the fact that the forgiveness of God is not the forgiveness of the state and the separation of church and state people should be the first to point that out, yet they never do...
The Fifth Amendment specifically provides for the death penalty: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Therefore, with due process, a person can be executed.
Personally, I don't like my tax dollars paying for the hundreds of thousands of people in prisons. IMHO, these criminals are treated far too kindly and should be forced to work to earn their keep. The Thirteenth Amendment specifically allows this: Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.Thus, convicts can be used as slaves and or as involuntary servants(although, I don't really grasp the difference...)
In the late nineties, when both Texas and Florida were executing murderers as fast as the appellant process allowed, both states saw a decline in murders.
Were someone to "find God" on death row, that should never be a deterrent to carrying out their sentence. In the case of Christians, for example, after their execution their souls would be in Heaven, so they really have nothing to fear from death, not to mention the fact that the forgiveness of God is not the forgiveness of the state and the separation of church and state people should be the first to point that out, yet they never do...
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
Innocent men have been put to death under the Death Penalty. Therefore, man's judgement process is fallible at some level and I cannot condone it.
Of course, I also think that the "War on Drugs" is ridiculous. Someone that I was talking to the other day actually thought that a huge amount of people would be out bootin' black tar heroin right after all drugs were made legal. I personally don't see it. Who actually thinks that people are prevented from doing drugs because they are illegal? Not very many. The percentage that would "experiment" with newly legal drugs would be infinitesimal.
Kinda like the percentage of people that are prevented from committing crimes because they are illegal.
What is the point of prison, in our 21st Century civilization? Punishment, or Rehabilitation? Some prisons have good voc-tec programs and education, and the rest are pretty much just Crime University.
Of course, I also think that the "War on Drugs" is ridiculous. Someone that I was talking to the other day actually thought that a huge amount of people would be out bootin' black tar heroin right after all drugs were made legal. I personally don't see it. Who actually thinks that people are prevented from doing drugs because they are illegal? Not very many. The percentage that would "experiment" with newly legal drugs would be infinitesimal.
Kinda like the percentage of people that are prevented from committing crimes because they are illegal.
What is the point of prison, in our 21st Century civilization? Punishment, or Rehabilitation? Some prisons have good voc-tec programs and education, and the rest are pretty much just Crime University.
Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
There are only two reasons people don't commit crimes.
1- Most people believe that committing crimes is wrong and won't commit them because their morals stop them.
2- The minority whose morals aren't strong enough to stop them are dettered by the threat of sanctions, i.e., fines, imprisonment, etc.
When there was more of a stigma about crime or being seen as a criminal, the world was better off because the fear of public shame was enough to stop many people from doing things they shouldn't.
1- Most people believe that committing crimes is wrong and won't commit them because their morals stop them.
2- The minority whose morals aren't strong enough to stop them are dettered by the threat of sanctions, i.e., fines, imprisonment, etc.
When there was more of a stigma about crime or being seen as a criminal, the world was better off because the fear of public shame was enough to stop many people from doing things they shouldn't.
