The Bast@&D Son of WING CHUN has returned...

matsu

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hi mate.
dont think anyone is having apop at graychuan.
i always really enjoyed his participation when i first joined here.
and the vids he has posted are def not as wing chun as i remember him so i guess we are all being nosey lol.
sifu rahim had some cool vids.cant find them anymore.
matsu
 

dungeonworks

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hi mate.
dont think anyone is having apop at graychuan.
i always really enjoyed his participation when i first joined here.
and the vids he has posted are def not as wing chun as i remember him so i guess we are all being nosey lol.
sifu rahim had some cool vids.cant find them anymore.
matsu


I hear you Matsu. Some posts had a tone of "who do you think you are..." the way I read them.
 
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graychuan

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Gentlemen...

Greetings and good blessings to all of you who responded so far. It is good to see a couple of you have remembered me since I have been off the forum for a while. For the last two years I have been finishing a Bachelors degree, completing a masters in Shaolin Kempo Karate (which I think all should make a mental note when considering ANY input I contribute regarding any art other than) and although I did study formally for 3.5 years I have fallen out of grace and no longer associate with them. Which is a shame because it was the best martial arts I had ever been exposed to yet. As they say though- nothing good comes without a price. My experience with WC has been bittersweet. I got myself savy(I thought) in all the nonsensical my lineage your lineage trifles but I came home from work one day and found myself in the middle of a Shaw Brothers movie. Water under the bridge.

Thus the Bastard Son of Wing Chun was born.


Anyway, in an effort to continue my own training and development I have had to invest in training partners. Thus I started a training club of people that I could bring along, introduce them to the art and continue my own training. Some of these I have known more than 15 years. Only the first video shows one of these pals. We claim no line. It is better to be a Bastard than to get these guys involved in what I was. They agree. It is also my hope that for me to come on here and put myself to the block then any of the active members for this forum would see that I am sincerely open to real discussion about WC. Besides...what does the bastard care what others say, right?

I was hoping for more commentary on the dummy drills actually but no problem. Now I try to not make any excuses so I will lay it down as it was. My friends in Logan county are all Kempokan as well. Save one but this is all the info you need to know about these private citizens. These were very basic drills to a group whom has never practiced the art and since they live several hours away I dont see them often.

This clip was a short demo of 4 basic drills that were practiced on a 5ft5in 145-155lb 19 year old by a 275lbs 6ft1 37 yrold grown man. Other than this I dont really see how you are so privy to the contact and energies involved just based on the clip. As for the elbows...I also disagree. A fist-width from the body or a little more depending on your unique body. Now I welcome any discussion about asking energy or structure or all that in due time.
All that more than one dimension circle parry element stuff?!? whats that, man?!?:eye-popping: Its his first time doing the drill. Besides, how are you able to see all that on a 2 dimensional screen. Any real wing chun is about energies anyway. In any drill its important to keep it simple. Its important to know what you are doing and why you are doing it. SLT is not just a form its a training method in of itself. But thats your input and thats cool. My group uses this basic pak-sao drill as a Timing drill. Granted it could be used for other things.

As far as structure goes...well my guy was doing these drills for the first time. sorry hes not a 15 minute WSL. As for mine....no worrys, no hurts, no offense. Ill just say I disagree. My full intention is to submit more clips of my training and get more input from all you active guys in here and to respectfully contribute anything I can.
Zepeda, cant wait to read what you have to contribute.
 

matsu

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hi chris
i think you would have had a different reaction if you had explained yourself first and given us a bit of background rather than putting it up there for peeps to have a guess and critique.
it is almost as tho you are looking for a heated debate lol:angel:
-i think geezer actually asked exactly that( and i echoed it)
i can understand how difficult it must be to find training partners but for my own progression i would just hate not having someone more advanced than me to learn from and stretch me in my skill.
i think the guys you videoed were very "brave" allowing you to record them at this very raw stage so kudos to them

but i think if we are basing it on wing chun principles,it is still lacking!
and from a video i think you can still see wether something has substance.
for example-
in the 1st drill the punches were never gong to connect so we wouldnt have bothered with them we are taught to just punch through that sort of attack.
i am very much a beginner graychuan so i cannot comment on much but i look forward to your posts,as i have always done!
matsu
 

mook jong man

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How ya going Graychuan you old bastard.
I've just watched your clips and these were some things that I noticed.
The Pak Sau drill was ok , I don't subscribe to the one Pak Sau fits all approach.

I can use my parry to drive forwards and collapse the structure if it is weak .
But I can also elect to parry the arm to the side , parry the arm upwards , or parry the arm down as is the case with the Chum Kiu parry.

The main point is that whichever you decide to use , that the force is generated from the elbow and out through the heel of your palm in line with your forearm.

Other than that it could have been a little bit more tidy and economical , but as you said the kid is a beginner and tell the kid to sink his weight down if he wants to be able to stand his ground with a man mountain like you.

With Lap Sau try to maintain contact with the pivot point on his arm right through the whole cycle from punch to low Bong.

As you went from low Bong to punch you were losing contact with his arm which means you are not keeping continuous forward force on him and keeping pressure on his structure.

I also noticed that you were latching down only with your forearm , keep the angle in your arm and sink the arm from the elbow , this uses the mass of the whole arm and engages the big back muscles and makes for a much more powerful and efficient latch.

With the dummy I can't comment too much as there were some movements there that were unfamiliar to my lineage.
But I will say that I would stop doing that inside Tan Sau and punching around the arm with your other hand.

Stand off to the side of one arm pierce on the outside of the arm and still let your punch go through the centreline , rather than standing in front of both arms and trying to punch around the dummy arm.

Maybe try raising your guard on the inside of the dummy slightly piercing forward both hands from the elbow so that the dummy is jolted backwards and let your forward arm turn into Tan Sau and pierce through.

Another thing I will say is to try and keep in more contact with the arms of the dummy using economy of movement as you flow around the arms from one technique to the next , try to minimise the time that you are out of contact with the arms of the dummy.

Just let your arms pivot around the arms of the dummy so that the dummy arms are always being controlled , and try to project your elbow force into the dummy.

Those were the things that caught my eye and as such they are seen through the filter of my lineage so you can take them for what they are worth.
 

zepedawingchun

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Zepeda, can’t wait to read what you have to contribute.

Mook Jong man, Matsu, and everyone else has pretty much said it all.

However, my contention with lineage is always important. There are too many Wing Chun qwacks out there teaching incorrectly. It's nice to know where someone comes from so you can at least get an idea of what to expect when it comes to knowledge. It doesn't mean you have the skill, but at least legitimacy is established. I'm proud to let you know with whom I've trained and studied with. And you should be too if you are genuine and sincere. Then any input you have is respected. I may not agree with it, but I'll respect it.
 

matsu

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How ya going Graychuan you old bastard.
I've just watched your clips and these were some things that I noticed.
The Pak Sau drill was ok , I don't subscribe to the one Pak Sau fits all approach.

I can use my parry to drive forwards and collapse the structure if it is weak .
But I can also elect to parry the arm to the side , parry the arm upwards , or parry the arm down as is the case with the Chum Kiu parry.

The main point is that whichever you decide to use , that the force is generated from the elbow and out through the heel of your palm in line with your forearm.

Other than that it could have been a little bit more tidy and economical , but as you said the kid is a beginner and tell the kid to sink his weight down if he wants to be able to stand his ground with a man mountain like you.

With Lap Sau try to maintain contact with the pivot point on his arm right through the whole cycle from punch to low Bong.

As you went from low Bong to punch you were losing contact with his arm which means you are not keeping continuous forward force on him and keeping pressure on his structure.

I also noticed that you were latching down only with your forearm , keep the angle in your arm and sink the arm from the elbow , this uses the mass of the whole arm and engages the big back muscles and makes for a much more powerful and efficient latch.

With the dummy I can't comment too much as there were some movements there that were unfamiliar to my lineage.
But I will say that I would stop doing that inside Tan Sau and punching around the arm with your other hand.

Stand off to the side of one arm pierce on the outside of the arm and still let your punch go through the centreline , rather than standing in front of both arms and trying to punch around the dummy arm.

Maybe try raising your guard on the inside of the dummy slightly piercing forward both hands from the elbow so that the dummy is jolted backwards and let your forward arm turn into Tan Sau and pierce through.

Another thing I will say is to try and keep in more contact with the arms of the dummy using economy of movement as you flow around the arms from one technique to the next , try to minimise the time that you are out of contact with the arms of the dummy.

Just let your arms pivot around the arms of the dummy so that the dummy arms are always being controlled , and try to project your elbow force into the dummy.

Those were the things that caught my eye and as such they are seen through the filter of my lineage so you can take them for what they are worth.

dammit.... just re read this and its stuff like this that makes me wanna emigrate just to train you mr mooooook!
matsu
 

Poor Uke

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Howdee,

i though the drills were OK. A little static for my liking but you did point out that they were beginners drills.

As for the dummy work, well mook kinda covered most of what I was gonna say. Except maybe start thinking about being off at an angle to the dummy and having to move into an effective position or finding techs that work from the position you are in.

I now this is all SLT stuff and hence the static stance (some evidenceof turning but not done well IMO) but not always being face on can add to your training.

Hope that helps.....
 

matsu

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I would consider it an honour to become your disciple and be trained by you Matsu. :asian:

omg oops i really did mean train with...with with with you. be taught by you lol
what a day.. its been mental here at work. 13hrs and it means i cant train tonight either damn damn
sorry off topic
matsu
 
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graychuan

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Since you said "Questions, comments or insults are welcome!"

So here we go ...

I could very well be mistaken, just MHO, the pak sao in drill 1 had more of an semi circle parry element (also too close to the wrist), gives rise to a chance of an redirected attack due to lack of checking/control of the arm ... counter attack such as the second half of the lop sao technique. Should it not be an forward driving pak to the arm and angles toward their center? Imparting your forward momentum/force on the attacking limb, redirecting the attack and providing you a temporary pin/trap across their body for quick counters. When time and done right, it disrupts their balance/structure caused by the turning of their upper torso enough that they scramble to recover in order to address you counter attack.



I find this post, especially the bold part, to be of particular concern. I am wondering which one or both of us you are referring to. If you look at basically all the drills you will see this guy bounce back off my structure for at least the first half of each drill if not all. Why is he bouncing back if his motherline is not being attacked? Though I outweigh him Im still shaking his whole structure. This is clearly seen. Later he relaxed and I also supplemented the drill to keep him going. So I understand your example and you are right in that context but it is clear here that he is being shown the right way but there is consideration in the fact that this was his very first Wing Chun lesson.
Just my opinion.
This was a good question and EXACTLY the kind of stuff I'm looking for. So thank you.
 
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graychuan

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I don't like to walk negatively about other peoples styles or clubs. However the techniques here seem to be more resembling WC then actual Wing Chun.

I.e I am seeing the techniques. But i'm not seeing the structure holding them together.

Luke

And why do we use structure? So we can channel the energy properly with minimal muscular force and as much sensitivity as possible. Therefore structure is something felt and not seen anyway. Now this doesn't mean that people can just get away with anything! Obvious deviations are obvious deviations! But if structure is used properly...you will see very little movement when on the defensive. The attacks are what the eyes catch the most, but its the subtle structure that stops them.
Now I think this is a good point to take this particular discussion into a moment where we define what out respective ideas of proper Wing Chun structure actually is and then this can get really good.

Another excellent exchange. Looking forward to more. Thank you.
 
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graychuan

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but i think if we are basing it on wing chun principles,it is still lacking!
and from a video i think you can still see wether something has substance.
for example-
in the 1st drill the punches were never gong to connect so we wouldnt have bothered with them we are taught to just punch through that sort of attack.

i am very much a beginner graychuan so i cannot comment on much but i look forward to your posts,as i have always done!
matsu

This is the only part of the statement I disagree with. Again, not trying to knock your level of practice(We are all beginners as far as Im concerned. Myself more so than others.), but I just don't see how you can see energy in a video. Especially since no advanced level of drilling or technique was shown. Just basic drills. It is because of my training and what I understand about Wing Chun that prompts me to make this statement, ' you cant see energy only feel it'. its nothing we all haven't heard before. This is all.
I think Juan made the best assessment based on what was shown.

This is fun, gentleman.
 

matsu

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Glad ur having fun mate. Welcome back lol
to disagree is to continue the debate.
Perhaps energy is the wrong word so I'll use 'intention'
matsu
 
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graychuan

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With the dummy I can't comment too much as there were some movements there that were unfamiliar to my lineage.
But I will say that I would stop doing that inside Tan Sau and punching around the arm with your other hand.

This here, especially the bold part is of high importance. Im sure I dont need to remind anyone that a Wooden man is not a physical representation of an opponent but an energetic one.
Now we all know that the hand is faster than the eye. Professional baseball pitcher, Magicians, Sharp shooters all bank on this fact. That being the case then if one relies on eyes to track a hand to hand attack then eventually your eyes will fall behind. But your own hands wont. Especially if you use bridge contact and sensitivity channeled through a proper structure to deal with the incoming energy(attack). Your eyes become almost irrelevant. this is why we see a many blindfolded chi sao videos and demos.

As for this particular technique....it is one of my bread and butter ones. I am not punching 'around' the arm. I am using bridge contact and bridgewalking to take the space offensively on that arm and at the same time I am using 'chum'(sinking energy) with the tan sao on the inside to control the other arm. BOTH sides of my triangle are attacking structure, sinking, and scoreing. Double Arm Control is the concept that applies. Now stepping outside of the center is not incorrect, we do it often in the Muk Yan Jeong. But we also work on the inside as much as the out. But this was not the form. This was a drill. It will make more sense once I post me doing it on an actual attacking opponent.
However, in moving to the outside many find themselves 'flanking' and mostly only dealing with one arm. Flanking works and Im not knocking it ,BUT why do we do Chi Sao? And my personal opinion is if you are not controlling both arms then you have not fully realized the potential of Wing Chun. So although you describe the physical appearance of the clip accurately, the actual ENERGY that was manifested remains unseen.
Later, as I bring my guys along (and as long as they are comfortable with it) we will demonstrate.

Now This was one heluva exchange! Thanks, Mook!




Another thing I will say is to try and keep in more contact with the arms of the dummy using economy of movement as you flow around the arms from one technique to the next , try to minimise the time that you are out of contact with the arms of the dummy.

Just let your arms pivot around the arms of the dummy so that the dummy arms are always being controlled , and try to project your elbow force into the dummy.

THIS I completely dig! Thank you. I bet this has a lot to do with sensitivity which I am sure we will talk a lot.:)
 

mook jong man

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As for this particular technique....it is one of my bread and butter ones. I am not punching 'around' the arm. I am using bridge contact and bridgewalking to take the space offensively on that arm and at the same time I am using 'chum'(sinking energy) with the tan sao on the inside to control the other arm. BOTH sides of my triangle are attacking structure, sinking, and scoreing.

Ok , I can understand that.
Essentially what you are doing is what we call a "Chark Jong" technique (smashing defences).
That is using two hands to control and penetrate the guard of the opponent.

I think you can make that technique more effective by using a Tan Sau on your outside hand as well so that you are using two Tan Sau's.
I believe it has a greater ability to pierce and displace than anything else.

It depends greatly on the position of the opponents hands but my preferred option is always to try and get both hands on the inside so that I have the " inside running " so to speak and can both penetrate the guard and uproot the person out of their stance.

I think if at all possible its probably better you practice "Chark Jong" techniques on a person rather than the dummy , the dummys arms do not move a great deal so you always will be stuck with one arm out to accommodate that rather than having the minimal movement from your guard and centreline to the point where you intercept the opponents wrists.
 

wtxs

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I find this post, especially the bold part, to be of particular concern. I am wondering which one or both of us you are referring to. If you look at basically all the drills you will see this guy bounce back off my structure for at least the first half of each drill if not all. Why is he bouncing back if his motherline is not being attacked? Though I outweigh him Im still shaking his whole structure. This is clearly seen. Later he relaxed and I also supplemented the drill to keep him going. So I understand your example and you are right in that context but it is clear here that he is being shown the right way but there is consideration in the fact that this was his very first Wing Chun lesson.
Just my opinion.
This was a good question and EXACTLY the kind of stuff I'm looking for. So thank you.

Thanks for the kind respond. I have high respect for you in sticking your neck out there and hope the axe don't fall.

Going over the the video again, those aging eyes of mine are not what they used to be. As in the execution phase, I see the first half of the forward driving pak in contact, but failed to see it made contact with therefore control the forearm/elbow, causing the attacking arm to be driven across or down & across the body before the pak is cycled back.

Different strokes for different folks (lineage). I was taught to quickly drive the pak forward and aims towards the inner defense zone/center (before rotation of hands) when drilling face to face or side advancing, to effect the end result as I had posted.

Hope this don't muddle things up a little bite more, I'm not well versed in explaining myself at times.:p
 
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graychuan

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I think you can make that technique more effective by using a Tan Sau on your outside hand as well so that you are using two Tan Sau's.
I believe it has a greater ability to pierce and displace than anything else.

It depends greatly on the position of the opponents hands but my preferred option is always to try and get both hands on the inside so that I have the " inside running " so to speak and can both penetrate the guard and uproot the person out of their stance.

NOW I see what you are getting at. I have never heard the term 'Chark Jong'. This is a new one to me. I get what you are saying but ultimately its something I would have to feel. Same as with these drills. The only thing about the double tan sao is that Im in the habit of having attack AND defense at the same time at all times. But of course there are always exceptions.... such as a bong & wu.
 
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graychuan

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... I was taught to quickly drive the pak forward and aims towards the inner defense zone/center (before rotation of hands) when drilling face to face or side advancing, to effect the end result as I had posted.

Im right with you here now. Funny thing is I had shown them this very thing just before we started practicing the drill. Your example was right on. I even did it with eyes closed to see if he could still stop my attack just to show the timing element. Ill do a clip of this the next time we get together. Its not magic...we all have or can get this skill... if you haven't already.
 
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