The ability to defend

[MasterArtMason]

Question and opinion. Is it the art form the person takes, the self defense system or the core belief the person has about themselves and their ability to defend that has the real impact.

I have had students with beautiful technique, power, balance and execution who would not survive an attack, and others with much less skill I would never worry about.

Yes there is a combination here, but what carries the most weight in your opinion?

 

[oftheherd1]

Question and opinion. Is it the art form the person takes, the self defense system or the core belief the person has about themselves and their ability to defend that has the real impact.

I have had students with beautiful technique, power, balance and execution who would not survive an attack, and others with much less skill I would never worry about.

Yes there is a combination here, but what carries the most weight in your opinion?

I would think it would be a person's ability to defend themselves. That seems to indicate they have already proven themselves.

I also think you could make up plenty of arguments for and against any of your positions. For example, if it is only a core belief that is untested, it may not be correct that the person can defend themselves.

Or, the art or system means nothing if the person doesn't learn it properly.

Many things go in to self defense. There have been long threads on that. Do you have an opinion?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

All of the above. The will to defend (and to do damage as needed) goes a long way. Adding skill will increase a person's chance of success. Confidence (that core belief) also increases their chances (decreases chance of attack, increases chances of strong defense if well founded).

What carries the most weight probably varies. If someone has an abundance of physical ability (not skill, just their base athleticism) and willingness to be violent in defending themselves, that will be the most important factor for that person. For someone with less of those things, developed skill will matter more.

In that latter case, the style they study (and how they study it) starts to matter a lot more.

 

[Paul_D]

Question and opinion. Is it the art form the person takes, the self defense system or the core belief the person has about themselves and their ability to defend that has the real impact.

I have had students with beautiful technique, power, balance and execution who would not survive an attack, and others with much less skill I would never worry about.

You've answered your own question there. It can't be the art or the system, as you yourself have students who would survive and others you're not worried about, but they all train the same system.

 

[Martial D]

Question and opinion. Is it the art form the person takes, the self defense system or the core belief the person has about themselves and their ability to defend that has the real impact.

I have had students with beautiful technique, power, balance and execution who would not survive an attack, and others with much less skill I would never worry about.

Yes there is a combination here, but what carries the most weight in your opinion?

I remember many years ago I was walking with a guy I knew from a boxing club we both went to and his girlfriend. As I recall we were headed to my place to knock a couple back.

This dude was a big boy and talked a big game. Not the best boxer but not the worst either. He believed in his ability to fight, and carried himself with confidence.

So anyway we walked past this pub and there were 4 guys outside smoking. They started making some comments about buddies girl, and of course buddy starts beaking back at them. Next thing you know they had come out to the street, and things got up close and personal. Wed already had a couple drinks, and things quickly escalated.

I just remember one guy swung at me and missed, I swing back and connected, sending the guy stumbling over a curb. Another one grabbed me, and next thing I remember I was on my back, wrestling with a rather large dude. I remember looking sideways to see my companion doing his best Carl Lewis impression, as his girl was calling him a p#ssy and other colorful adjectives.

I managed to get to my feet but not before eating a few kicks to the ribs from one of them, and once I did I managed to connect with a pretty sweet left hook to the guy I was wrestling, causing enough of a gap to beat a hasty retreat from the 3 angry men in front of me. (The fourth had chased after the guy I was with)

The moral? You have no idea how you will react to a situation until it happens, much less how others will.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Question and opinion. Is it the art form the person takes, the self defense system or the core belief the person has about themselves and their ability to defend that has the real impact.

I have had students with beautiful technique, power, balance and execution who would not survive an attack, and others with much less skill I would never worry about.

Yes there is a combination here, but what carries the most weight in your opinion?

A belief in your ability to defend yourself is pretty much irrelevant. The WILL to do so is far more important.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

I believe that is great that you are able to defent your self

 

[jobo]

Question and opinion. Is it the art form the person takes, the self defense system or the core belief the person has about themselves and their ability to defend that has the real impact.

I have had students with beautiful technique, power, balance and execution who would not survive an attack, and others with much less skill I would never worry about.

Yes there is a combination here, but what carries the most weight in your opinion?

what's wrong with the person who you worry about? If they have all the skills, some people are not fighters by nature, I'm not sure you can train that into them, but they should be able to throw a good punch or kick if someone jumps on them

 

[lklawson]

Both.

A person must have valid, "workable," skills and ability but must also have a mindset to effectively apply under conditions which might be termed "self defense."

 

[lklawson]

what's wrong with the person who you worry about? If they have all the skills, some people are not fighters by nature, I'm not sure you can train that into them, but they should be able to throw a good punch or kick

Everyone is a fighter by nature. Nature is what programs them thus. That said, many people are trained out of it by society and/or upbringing, by emotionally scarring experiences which reinforce fear and inaction, or occasionally by chemical imbalances which cause or foster clinical anxiety.

But if humanity was not "survival oriented" by nature, it would have passed from the earth soon after created.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[jobo]

Both.

A person must have valid, "workable," skills and ability but must also have a mindset to effectively apply under conditions which might be termed "self defense."

i think the term sd is to passive, it may be self defence in law, as they attacked you first, but after that its a fight, were you attack. I think that where a lot fall down, they can block and return fine, but when it gets down and dirty they don't have the stomach for it

 

[lklawson]

i think the term sd is to passive, it may be self defence in law, as they attacked you first, but after that its a fight, were you attack. I think that where a lot fall down, they can block and return fine, but when it gets down and dirty they don't have the stomach for it

The firearms-for-self-defense community is heavily into this concept, where it is usually referred to as "mind set." The short-hand for this part of mind set is basically "the will to survive at any cost."

Once the fight is engaged, keep fighting until the threat is passed or you can escape.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[jobo]

Everyone is a fighter by nature. Nature is what programs them thus. That said, many people are trained out of it by society and/or upbringing, by emotionally scarring experiences which reinforce fear and inaction, or occasionally by chemical imbalances which cause or foster clinical anxiety.

But if humanity was not "survival oriented" by nature, it would have passed from the earth soon after created.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

no i don't think so, some people are not only able to fight but enjoy it. That not for everyone, I've seen people beaten half unconscious get up , break a bottle and go back for another go, you have to near kill them before they will give it up, others are holding their hands up after one good punch on the nose

 

[jobo]

The firearms-for-self-defense community is heavily into this concept, where it is usually referred to as "mind set." The short-hand for this part of mind set is basically "the will to survive at any cost."

Once the fight is engaged, keep fighting until the threat is passed or you can escape.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I'm talking about the bit, where you have trouble stopping before you kick them to death as opposed to defending till they get bored, run out of gas, or someone breaks it up

 

[lklawson]

I'm talking about the bit, where you have trouble stopping before you kick them to death as opposed to defending till they get bored, run out of gas, or someone breaks it up

I am too and we disagree. The research I've seen (and my experience) is that once people get started, they get often into a loop. It all falls down onto the primitive "lizard brain," what I call Robo Droid. Robo Droid is the "fight or flight [or freeze]" part of the brain that is what's left when adrenaline dump turns off the prefrontal cortex. Typically if Robo Droid isn't "programmed' do do stuff it will just run a "default" program, which for some people is "do nothing and stand there." That's the "freeze." It often takes specific training to get get a fight response, and then it take specific (repetitive) training to get certain other responses.

The thing is, when Robo Droid runs its program it doesn't necessarily have an exit condition. Further "programming" (such as those who have a violent upbringing) can program Robo Droid so that there is no exit condition.

The work of Dave Grossman is especially useful here. I highly recommend it to you.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Danny T]

Question and opinion. Is it the art form the person takes, the self defense system or the core belief the person has about themselves and their ability to defend that has the real impact.

I have had students with beautiful technique, power, balance and execution who would not survive an attack, and others with much less skill I would never worry about.

Yes there is a combination here, but what carries the most weight in your opinion?

There are art forms that have absolutely nothing to do with having self defense or fighting skills even though the art is based on fighting actions.
Many persons have successful defended themselves in situations simply because of their sheer will to fight back and passion to live or passion to protect their love ones but have no real fight skill.
Most martial arts are good when well trained and practiced for fighting skills. (some not so much)
Ones desire to use violence will depend on the person, culture, belief systems, passions, and environment.
On one's core belief in themselves to defend themselves...there are a lot in the martial artist who have a large false sense of security. They truly believe they have fighting skills when they don't. They are in as much trouble as those who have skills but don't believe in them or don't believe in themselves. (Have seen a lot of both)
What carries the most weight is the person who believes in themselves, who has tremendous passion for life or a love one, and is truly willing to do whatever is necessary to protect them.

 

[hoshin1600]

Is it the art form the person takes, the self defense system

to simplify i would combine style and system and call them a "body of knowledge" or "skill set"

he core belief the person has about themselves and their ability to defend

a core belief or confidence is inert. it is not a factor in the ability to defend one's self.

the major factor is training methodology. as others have said its not really confidence, some call it heart some call it "gameness" . there is a point where the fight turns to flight. that point is different for everyone and is related to the amount of both mental and physical stress and duress a person can deal with. with a proper training methodology you can increase this tipping point when the mind wants to turn to flight. you can think of a stress scale from 1 to 10. 10 being the highest stress level and as you train in stress inoculation you can increase the level you can handle. there is a lot more to training methods but the basic point is how you train is more important then the body of knowledge in which you train. and if you dont naturally have a high tolerance for violence you can train it.

 

[drop bear]

The difference between being a martial artist and a fighter.

 

[jobo]

to simplify i would combine style and system and call them a "body of knowledge" or "skill set"



a core belief or confidence is inert. it is not a factor in the ability to defend one's self.

the major factor is training methodology. as others have said its not really confidence, some call it heart some call it "gameness" . there is a point where the fight turns to flight. that point is different for everyone and is related to the amount of both mental and physical stress and duress a person can deal with. with a proper training methodology you can increase this tipping point when the mind wants to turn to flight. you can think of a stress scale from 1 to 10. 10 being the highest stress level and as you train in stress inoculation you can increase the level you can handle. there is a lot more to training methods but the basic point is how you train is more important then the body of knowledge in which you train. and if you dont naturally have a high tolerance for violence you can train it.

of course a core belief is important, if you don't believe you can robustly defend yourself, then you almost certainly cant, as with almost everything else in life, belief doesn't mean you can, but a lack of belief almost certainly means you cant.

I've had three indecent recently, where someone has been trying to physically intimidate me, once they realise that I'm not at all scared of them, i mean really not scared, to the point that you can't fake it, then they backed down very quickly.

they didn't know if i could fight or not, what they did know was i believe i could take them out and that was enough

 

[MasterArtMason]

I would think it would be a person's ability to defend themselves. That seems to indicate they have already proven themselves.

I also think you could make up plenty of arguments for and against any of your positions. For example, if it is only a core belief that is untested, it may not be correct that the person can defend themselves.

Or, the art or system means nothing if the person doesn't learn it properly.

Many things go in to self defense. There have been long threads on that. Do you have an opinion?

It has never been an issue for me personally. So I really don't have an opinion. That is why I am asking. I have just seen so many instances of different responses to attack that it is something of interest to me.