Tenets, Morals and values

terryl965

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What happened to the real essence of Martial Arts, where did time stand still and when did ego's and bad attitudes take over.

I only ask these question for myself, for I have three childern age 12,9 and 8. I would hope that the childern they play would have some of these characturistic, but Lord and behold they do not. They come over the house or to the school and critizise everything to my childern, like your dad will not let us play video games, well we have a time limit every week on how mush TV and videos games they can play once they hit there mark no more until next week.

They come by the school to make fun of the students that are training and of course no parents, one dad told me why I would not let my 12 year old go to the mall with his son. Not to mention the other kids parent drop them off for 6 hrs unattended, without parent supervision, am I just getting to old- has the time by pass me- does anybody else feel this way?
Terry
 

Xue Sheng

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I wish I could say you were way off here, but you are not.

Things are very different than they were when I was growing up and I am beginning to believe I am just an old Dinosaur
 

Grenadier

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terryl965 said:
They come by the school to make fun of the students that are training and of course no parents, one dad told me why I would not let my 12 year old go to the mall with his son. Not to mention the other kids parent drop them off for 6 hrs unattended, without parent supervision, am I just getting to old- has the time by pass me- does anybody else feel this way?
Terry


Going back to the old teaching rule, where some of your students are going to be great no matter how how bad the instruction may be, most of your students can be decent with good instruction, and some of your students will be less than satisfactory no matter how good your instruction may be, we can apply this to raising one's kids.

Some of the kids out there are going to be great kids no matter how bad the parenting may be. Most of the kids can become great kids with the right parenting. Some of the kids are going to be truly rotten kids no matter how good the parenting may be.

We cannot, however, look at a bad kid, and automatically say "Oh, he must be part of that bottom tier of kids." Most of these bad kids might not be in their current state of behavior had the parents simply done the right things from the start.

It's the parents that are the most powerful influence on the children, and it comes down to the parents instilling a good sense of morals in their children from the very start. The parents should also not be afraid to discipline their children in the most appropriate manner when needed.

I am not going to tell parents how to discipline their kids. What works for one may not necessarily work for another. What is important, though, is that they carry out such discipline effectively.

I am not advocating denying the children their rewards when such things are deserved. If anything the parents should always reward good behavior, even if it's with a simple smile or otherwise small gesture of approval. However, where kids often go bad, is when bad behavior is rewarded, whether intentionally done or not, and this includes not doing anything about a child's bad behavior, which teaches them that they can get away with things.

A certain politician once made the remark that "it takes a village," but that's simply not the case. It takes good parenting, and good parenting can trump a bad villlage's influence.
 
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terryl965

terryl965

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Xue Sheng said:
I wish I could say you were way off here, but you are not.

Things are very different than they were when I was growing up and I am beginning to believe I am just an old Dinosaur

Yea I have that same feeling alot here lately.
Terry
 

Andrew Green

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terryl965 said:
when did ego's and bad attitudes take over.

When martial arts became as much about looking "cool" and getting belts as it did anything else. Kata is performed, trophies are sought, and whoever has the most notches on their ratty old... sorry, "experienced" belt is dictator.

Everyone says they are "In it for itself" but how many really are? How many would continue training just as hard if there suddenly where no trophies to win, no belts to "earn", no ranks, just a group of people that got together and trained, no real "authority figure" and no ability to become one?

Chain of Command is important, in the army. Since none of us will ever be ordered into a combat situation and there is no "real" reason, it turns into a ego thing for a good many guys that can't even see how ratty their old belt is.
 

ronin_warrior_j

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terryl965 said:
What happened to the real essence of Martial Arts, where did time stand still and when did ego's and bad attitudes take over.

I only ask these question for myself, for I have three childern age 12,9 and 8. I would hope that the childern they play would have some of these characturistic, but Lord and behold they do not. They come over the house or to the school and critizise everything to my childern, like your dad will not let us play video games, well we have a time limit every week on how mush TV and videos games they can play once they hit there mark no more until next week.

They come by the school to make fun of the students that are training and of course no parents, one dad told me why I would not let my 12 year old go to the mall with his son. Not to mention the other kids parent drop them off for 6 hrs unattended, without parent supervision, am I just getting to old- has the time by pass me- does anybody else feel this way?
Terry

I too am a parent, and with all the storys of Child molestation, rape and murder filling the news, its almost horrifying to let your kids out of your sight for even a few minutes. I too have the same problem with other peoples kids, I try to teach my children right from wrong and its hard to do when the parents of alot of the other neighborhood kids just let there little monsters run wild and tear the neighborhood up.
 

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Forgive me for being a cynic, but here's my opinion.

I don't think there has ever been a time in Martial Arts where the majority of practitioners lived by such high standards of moral conduct.

Luckily we have had a few shining examples of such behavior in the history of Martial Arts. Something we should aspire too, though many don't.

JeffJ
 

AceHBK

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Terry I understand where you are coming from.

I think alot of it comes from the parents. Parents are becoming younger and younger and that has had an effect on parenting. My mother is 69 I think and my father is in his mid 70's. I am 28 so I am use to the old way of parenting and I am the same way towards my g/f's kids.

I wish there were more parents from the old school way of parenting.
Now it is too much of trying to coddle kids as well as trying to be their friend and buddy without being their parent first. The kids reflect this.

In MA's i think the westernization of it has hurt it as well. It is a combat thing where all values and morals are just expressed on paper but in training an how most schools are run, it is a different story. It is no longer a way of life.
 

Kensai

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terryl965 said:
What happened to the real essence of Martial Arts, where did time stand still and when did ego's and bad attitudes take over.

I only ask these question for myself, for I have three childern age 12,9 and 8. I would hope that the childern they play would have some of these characturistic, but Lord and behold they do not. They come over the house or to the school and critizise everything to my childern, like your dad will not let us play video games, well we have a time limit every week on how mush TV and videos games they can play once they hit there mark no more until next week.

They come by the school to make fun of the students that are training and of course no parents, one dad told me why I would not let my 12 year old go to the mall with his son. Not to mention the other kids parent drop them off for 6 hrs unattended, without parent supervision, am I just getting to old- has the time by pass me- does anybody else feel this way?
Terry

Hello mate. I think you're absolutely BANG ON in your approach. Too often we think we can buy kids affections with time on PS2's, new games, toys, allowing them to "do what they want, when they want". That's not what kids want at all. Love them, guide them, be honest with them, spend time with them, talk to them. Wins every time.
 

Elayna

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I tottaly feel you Terry. I have a 19 month old son, but, i have raised almost 10 kids in my long yet short lived life. I raised 2 siblings, 1 niece, and 7 from the system. My parents were foster parents for me, and they still remained foster parents even after they adopted me, my brother and my sister. My adopted parents were &quot;old school&quot; i guess you could say. They definatly did not coddle us. If we embarassed them, said something bad even if it wasnt a cuss word, or did any number of things wrong we would get beat. With either a belt, wire hanger or any number of things. Update: I dont speak to them anymore..go figure. LOLI guess my point being, that I dont believe that &quot;old school&quot; parenting is always the best. But I also dont agree with those parents that spend more time with the &quot;pta&quot; then with their own kids.Your right, they let them run wild, disrespect not only themselves but others around them, and they get away with it!!. And I hate to say it, but martial arts in general has become exactly like this. Where its all about being &quot;ganta&quot; instead of having Honor and Respect. I capatialize these because I find these 2 things very important to any society. And to YOURSELF.I live in the good ole ATL, so I know all about the kids around here wanting to be &quot;gangsta&quot;, whether they are black, hispanic, or white as a sheet, they think being cool, dangerous, and looking like a thug or a slut is sooooo cool. Well I dont think so...makes you look like a freaking moron. But do you think their parents are saying...take that mini skirt off and put something decent on your 12 for goodness sakes...NOPE. or what about the boys around here that are 15 and getting a gun from their &quot;gangsta&quot; cousins ha? I mean OMG if only parents would take the time to talk to them like adults, and at the same time, givem a good pop on the face. LOL.I believe that kids can understand what you mean if you dont treat them like their stupid. But I also believe that sometimes a good smack on the face will bring them a nice bright red reality check. LOL. (note: dont beat your kids).Now that Ive said this....if you look at alot of dojos in this modern world..you will see...or I have...that their students are almost exactly the same way. Looking cool by looking violent, looking thugish or even slutty. And you know what...I hate to say this....but the masters are to blame....just like the parents are to blame for the children.So maybe we can look at this...Trend....and say...somethings got to change.We need more Honor, Respect, and Dignity. In ourselves, in our life, and with regards to others.I have hope for them though. Because all it takes is 1, 1 person, parent or child, to say something, or do something right that catches everyone attention.....and then guess what...we have a new &quot;fad&quot;...>WHOOHOOO..LOLSo....Dont know quite what Im trying to say...But I hope someone somewhere gets something good out of my rambiling....LOL.From one bewildered mom to another.....:)
 

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Andrew Green said:
How many would continue training just as hard if there suddenly where no trophies to win, no belts to "earn", no ranks, just a group of people that got together and trained, no real "authority figure" and no ability to become one?

If anyone hasn't trained in this kind of environment, there is no way I can recommend it enough.
 

w.kaer

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I too am a parent of two youngins (6 and 4). I often think back on my upbringing. It was nothing for us to go outside and down the street by ourselves. I could very safely navigate my own way around the neighborhood without fear of being snatched up. There is no way in the world I would let my children do that nowadays...Times have changed, but we do not. Stay the course and do the right thing. My only hope is that my children can grow up healthy in a world with two loving parents and be taught to make right choices. It is a shame we have to do that sort of thing on the defensive.
 

hongkongfooey

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The biggest difference that I can see, in comparing the time I grew up and today, is the lack of discipline. Children today treat people and property like trash, because their parents are afraid to lay down the law. If I had acted this way when I was a child I would have never made it to adulthood. My father would have killed me.
 

pstarr

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I agree with Grenadier.

I always carefully interview the parents to see what THEY'RE like before admitting a child into class. And I let them know that our classes are highly diisciplined and anyone - child or adult - who behaves inappropriately will be disciplined. Period. If they have a problem with that, they can go find another school...
 

Fu_Bag

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Hello All,

There are some really good points here. I kind of get the impression that the shining examples became shining examples because they made a lot of mistakes, did things they later wished they hadn't, and maybe felt like if even one person could set a positive example, that others would follow. I'm not so sure that their martial arts training was the primary reason for their thoughts and actions later in life. I have a feeling the best in them came out only after the worst of them had.

I guess some people just choose to mature, grow, and hope for something better while others either take the opposite path or just don't care. Like others have said, apathy is an evil all unto itself. At least we can choose to do something about it by coming together, working on ourselves, our families, and our communities even if it's just one person at a time.

Have a nice day/night all.

Fu Bag
 

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JeffJ said:
Forgive me for being a cynic, but here's my opinion.

I don't think there has ever been a time in Martial Arts where the majority of practitioners lived by such high standards of moral conduct.

Luckily we have had a few shining examples of such behavior in the history of Martial Arts. Something we should aspire too, though many don't.

JeffJ

You also beat me to that. Although I would add, that perhaps those that remain in the arts for a long, long time, perhaps may become a little more chilled? Less egotistical?

Andy Green, not wanting to disagree with you, because I generally don't, but we don't have belts, nor tournaments, but I go because I genuinely love what I do, sometimes when I've been punched in the face I don't. We have a sifu, but he's the most relaxed, on the level, humble bloke I've ever met. I don't think the MA automatically makes one a better person, as Adept said in a similar discussion a couple of months or so ago, training hard in any particular discipline for an extended period of time will yield the same result. I think the MA are meant to espouse the concept of "making one a better person, showing them the way to spiritual calmness" simply because it's the MA. I think it depends on the person and their attitude. I think if you had tenets, morals and values before you entered into MA, you'll most likely keep them, if you didn't, why expect MA to work miracles...
 

Kacey

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I think that the question Terry asked is valid for society as a whole... but I don't know that it's necessarily new.

Our youth now loves luxuries. They have bad manners, contempt for authority. They show disrespect for elders and they love to chatter instead of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants, of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up their food, and tyrannize their teachers.


Socrates, 425 BC (some sources cite Plato, who attributed this quote to Socrates in Plato's Republic Vol. 4)

The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they alone knew everything and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for girls, they areforward, immodest and unwomanly in speech, behaviour and dress.


Attributed to Socrates by the mayor of Amsterdam

I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond
words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and
respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise
[disrespectful] and impatient of restraint


Hesiod, 8th century BC

I guess my point is that there are multiple factors at play here, that have been in play for as long as society has been in existence. Do I see a significant problem with today's society, in terms of courtesy, integrity, perseverance, self-control, and indomitable spirit (the Tenets as laid out by Gen. Choi) - certainly. Do I see it being more of a problem, in general, than inthe past? I'm not sure - was there less difficulty with these issues in earlier times, or were the difficulties expressed differently? Has our current society allowed these issues to come more to the forefront than previously, or are they really bigger problems? I'm not sure.

As far as MA goes... well... certainly, I know students who were not exposed to morality and discipline in their lives outside MA who were able to find morality and discipline in MA, or boxing, or gymnastics, or any one of a large variety of activities, and apply that to their own lives for their own betterment - and a I know students who were exposed to the same concepts at home who were not able to apply it, to their detriment... some of whom were able to learn it in MA and apply it then, and some who couldn't. Certainly, for myself, participation in TKD has been invaluable - but some of that was encountering it at the correct time. Sooner, and I would not have been ready; later, and it might have been too late to have sufficient effect.
 

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you know when i was a young teen in the mid 80s my dad wanted to know everyone i was friends with. this included address telephone what parents did and where they worked etc.
 
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