Technique practicality

[Sapper6]

Mr. Parker was often said that a technique's usefulness and value doesn't necessarily lie in their street practicality. i'm guessing he hinted at "hidden" reason's for a certain techniques incorporation into the curriculum. would anyone like to further elaborate on this? what is your take on what Mr. Parker possibly meant by this?

thanks in advance.

:asian:

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Several of American Kenpo's techniques aren't meant for combat in their "ideal" phase. They are there just to teach a certain principle(s) of motion. Example: Deceptive Panther -- While being a very effective "street technique" it is against a not so common "street attack". The technique is there mainly as a lesson in revers motion. The technique "plays itself" in reverse after the left strike to the opponents neck/jaw depending on who teaches it.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Several of American Kenpo's techniques aren't meant for combat in their "ideal" phase. They are there just to teach a certain principle(s) of motion. Example: Deceptive Panther -- While being a very effective "street technique" it is against a not so common "street attack". The technique is there mainly as a lesson in revers motion. The technique "plays itself" in reverse after the left strike to the opponents neck/jaw depending on who teaches it.

Would you be so kind as to list those you don't feel are made for combat in the ideal phase, you've got my curiosity piqued as I don't see that. As far as the not so common street attack, please, list what's most common. I can't figure where you guys come up with this stuff about not meant for combat, or, it's just there for category completion. You've been training AK for 7 years (http://www.arnis.org/certification/regional_representatives_hawkins.htm), to be honest, you don't have enough knowledge of the Kenpo system to be making quotes like that about AK. I can remember my time at that rank and feeling the same way, I've since grown out of it as my understanding of what Kenpo is grows daily.

BTW, Deceptive Panther comes nowhere close to playing in reverse, the targets are misaligned and the angles of execution are different for that to happen.

DarK LorD

 

[Sapper6]

@DKL

i can see that you obviously disagree with Mr. Hawkin's perspective on this. what is your opinion on the question as stated in post #1.

i'd really like to hear all opinions as they apply to themselves, and what they personally think. let's try not to criticize others about what they believe, as that wasn't the intent behind this thread.

all ideas of thought are welcomed, regardless if the masses would agree with them or not.

thanks again. :asian:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Student of motion; mechanic of motion; engineer of motion. There is kenpo within kenpo, and the ideal and what-if phases are only a beginning. Stare into the mist long enough, deeply enough, and new dimensions begin to unwravel themselves as ever-increasing insights as to how concepts and sequences overlap, flow, and complement each other.

If your into kenpo for the short-haul, don't set too high an expectation for interpretation or understanding. Get your hobby fix, take what works for you, and enjoy the ride. If you want to trip-tic for the long-haul, keep staring into the crystal ball. There's some neat stuff buried in "techniques that don't work".

Regards,

Dave

 

[kenpoworks]

.....There is kenpo within kenpo......Stare into the mist long enough, deeply enough, and new dimensions begin to unwravel themselves as ever-increasing insights as to how concepts and sequences overlap, flow, and complement each other.
..............There's some neat stuff buried in "techniques that don't work".
......Dave

Well put my man, well put.
Richard

 

[Sapper6]

Student of motion; mechanic of motion; engineer of motion. There is kenpo within kenpo, and the ideal and what-if phases are only a beginning. Stare into the mist long enough, deeply enough, and new dimensions begin to unwravel themselves as ever-increasing insights as to how concepts and sequences overlap, flow, and complement each other...

...There's some neat stuff buried in "techniques that don't work".

Regards,

Dave

can you go deeper that this...? what kind of neat stuff?

a technique's usefulness and value doesn't necessarily lie in their street practicality.

again, how so?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Every couple of years I re-visit books I've read before. My own experience is that I forget more than I remember, so they are worth re-reading. In Infinite Insights 5, Mr. Parker speaks to this very topic. First off, the ideal phase is meant to illustrate principles, with the full underdstanding that deviation is inevitable. In the book, a couple of self-defense techniques are demonstrated. They are then followed by (in some cases) several pages of principles and concepts that are illustrated in the technique.

Hence, even if the technique itself may not SEEM to be pragmatic to you, the concepts illustrated in -- and taught by -- the technique have infinite application. Additionally, that same section speaks to identifying Master Key Moves present in various techniques...movements alone or in sequence that repeat themselves in several self-defense techniques. They may end the same, but how they are gotten to or applied differs...again as a way of elucidating different concepts, how CONTEXT plays a role in the decision making process about what techniques/basics/skills to use, when, where, and to what end.

Several pages of things to keep in mind while practicing techniques are also listed; environmental factors, opponents attacking weapons; his position; your position; and so on. The ultimate goal is complete ownership of the concepts and principles woven layers deep into each tech, so that one may operate from a position of spontanaety (sp?). Spontaneous response can only come from depth of ownership, which in turn can only come from dedicated and THOUGHTFUL practice. Not brainless rote repetition, but applying your noodle to what you're doing, and the thousands of possible "why's". Your body is only one weapon in your arsenal, and certainly not the most powerful. Mind drives mass; train your brain.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Sapper6]

...First off, the ideal phase is meant to illustrate principles, with the full underdstanding that deviation is inevitable. In the book, a couple of self-defense techniques are demonstrated. They are then followed by (in some cases) several pages of principles and concepts that are illustrated in the technique...

...Hence, even if the technique itself may not SEEM to be pragmatic to you, the concepts illustrated in -- and taught by -- the technique have infinite application.

Regards,

Dave

so are you saying that there is a chance that that particular technique's value is not based upon face value of the technique, but the underlying principles of what makes the technique what it is...?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

so are you saying that there is a chance that that particular technique's value is not based upon face value of the technique, but the underlying principles of what makes the technique what it is...?

Partly. What I will go out on a limb to say is that, if you get the opening moves of a technique into ownership, you won't get the chance to finish it. Kenpoists tend to train for hand-speed that neglects to take the speed of collapsing bodies into account. There is a black belt who was out of Mr. Whites school who tells a story as a policeman...guy on a bus (I think with a knife)...narrow width to respond in. Bad guy makes the attack; kenpo guy initiates 5-swords...gets off the block and the chop. Palm heel strikes air. Why? The guy was downed from the hack to the neck.

Commercial kenpo has failure built into it...fall-back positions and successive strikes in the event the ideal phase doesn't take. Mr. Chapel has made training for success an integral part of the kenpo he teaches; the technique is taught in its entirety, but one must not expect to get that far when the front end of the tech is done correctly. The "what if" becomes "what if the guy falls to the floor before you finish the technique?". Oddly, the capacity for this was built into kenpo all along...most just don't have the eyes to see, or are unwilling to have them opened if it threatens their pre-existing understandings of possibility & limitation.

For as unrealistic as a technique may seem to you, remember this: Someone, somewhere, can pull it off without a hitch. So, is it really unrealistic?

Regards,

Dave

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kenpoists tend to train for hand-speed that neglects to take the speed of collapsing bodies into account.

For as unrealistic as a technique may seem to you, remember this: Someone, somewhere, can pull it off without a hitch. So, is it really unrealistic?

Regards,

Dave

And therein lie two of the greatest fallacies in Kenpo mythology.

1) Kenpo techniques are overkill and a well executed technique will be so devastating that the attacker will hit the ground before you've had a chance to execute all 8 strikes in 3 seconds.

2) Because someone somewhere makes it work once, it must be good.

Just as many times as times as you will find an example of an attacker falling from a well executed technique before it is finished, you will find examples of attackers fighting back and causing the Kenpoist to alter the technique in order to win.

Just as many times as you find a Kenpoist who can make a technique work, you will find a Kenpoist who can't make it work. You shouldn't have to be able to solve a rubik's cube in order to draw a square. And you shouldn't have to spend 5 - 25 years learning Kenpo in order to execute the system's basic techniques.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

And therein lie two of the greatest fallacies in Kenpo mythology.

1) Kenpo techniques are overkill and a well executed technique will be so devastating that the attacker will hit the ground before you've had a chance to execute all 8 strikes in 3 seconds.

2) Because someone somewhere makes it work once, it must be good.

Just as many times as times as you will find an example of an attacker falling from a well executed technique before it is finished, you will find examples of attackers fighting back and causing the Kenpoist to alter the technique in order to win.

Just as many times as you find a Kenpoist who can make a technique work, you will find a Kenpoist who can't make it work. You shouldn't have to be able to solve a rubik's cube in order to draw a square. And you shouldn't have to spend 5 - 25 years learning Kenpo in order to execute the system's basic techniques.

Couldn't agree with you more than I already do, Alan. This is exactly the point to studying techs for concepts, principles, and key movements; you SHOULDN'T get the whole thing off. In my personal kenpo journey, I had to switch to boxing for a time to learn to hit hard enough to hurt someone. After I finally got it, I could go back to kenpo and make the "marriage of gravity" lessons I'd heard ad nauseum actually apply. Independently of me, they worked the whole time. I just needed a different perspective from a different venue to put the pieces together in my own pea brain. Palm heel take downs were more viable for me after spending hours drilling osoto throws. I just learn better via cross-training (helps the light bulbs come on).

And I ain't saying it must be good because someone somewhere did it once. I personally view many SD techs as not being ready for use off the line. Then someone will come along and offer a different perspective on the same move that makes the whole thing light up again. As a learning journey, I would say the impracticality doesn't lay with what we do know of a technique, but what we don't. I can look at techniques and forms now with a different set of eyes than I had 25 years ago. That's the "long haul" part of the journey. Long kenpo journeys aren't for everyone, nor should they be. But for those of us tweaked enough in the head to make this a life-long hobby, the information -- and skill -- unfolds in layers.

I'd say...learn it now, re-visit it later. About every 3-5 years, I get another layer of the onion peeled back off my eyes, and develop a whole new appreciation for the complexities and subtleties that are layers deep in kenpo. Keeps it fun; keeps it interesting. Perfect? Hell no. But nevertheless entertaining. Beats being bad at video games.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Rich_Hale]

Several of American Kenpo's techniques aren't meant for combat in their "ideal" phase. They are there just to teach a certain principle(s) of motion.

In the last post that Mr. Hawkins and I both responded to, I disagreed with him as to "Mr. Parker's" meaning of the term Reverse Marriage of Gravity.

In this case I couldn't agree with him more. I may not have chosen to use the same example he used, but that has less to do with the correctness of his answer, and more to do with the fact that I'm old . . . I mean older, and maybe just a little more wise in the ways of the written word (and how it can be used against me).

The quote referred to in Sapper6's question is actually an exact quote from my web site, so I feel compelled to respond to the question, and as to what I meant when I wrote it.

James is absolutely correct when he said, "Several of American Kenpo's techniques aren't meant for combat in their "ideal" phase. They are there just to teach a certain principle(s) of motion."

This goes back to what Mr. Parker thought the "ideal" phase of a technique was; not what you and I think its ideal phase is. As he taught it to me, the ideal phase of a technique has less to do with its street practicality, and more to do with the principle, or movement he wanted me to learn.

This can be as complex as a technique like Deceptive Panther, or as simple as the use of a hammerfist instead of a handsword. Let's face it, there are many a technique that call for a handsword, where a hammerfist could be just as effective, if not more so, and vise versa. But in order to make sure we practiced both handswords and hammerfists, Mr. Parker divided these weapons (somewhat) evenly throughout the system, so we would be exposed to both.

The same holds true for the distribution of targets as it does for weapons.

Take for example Dance of Death, Thundering Hammers, and The Sleeper. They all start out basically the same - executing a left inward block to your opponent's right punch, with your right arm hanging naturally at your side. Dance of Death then strikes low, Thundering Hammer strikes to the middle, and The Sleeper strikes high. Students often ask if they could strike to the groin (low) for Thundering Hammers, because they feel it would be more effective. I simply tell them that if anyone ever attacks them, on the street, with a right punch, they have my blessing to defend against it any way they please . . . but in class I want Thundering Hammer to be a middle level strike, because we are already practicing a low strike when we do Dance of Death.

All too often people confuse Mr. Parker's techniques with the techniques from other systems. Many other systems teach techniques for the sole purpose of street defense. To Mr. Parker this was like teaching your children sentences one at a time, on an as-needed basis, instead of teaching them how to read and write the language itself.

Many of our techniques are very effective in the street, but I agree completely with James (if I'm correctly interpreting what he is trying to say) in that as effective as they may be, their street practicality is still secondary to the principles of Kenpo that they were designed to teach.

In closing, though Mr. Hawkins may have only 7 years in the art, I'd say he has a better understanding of Kenpo than many high ranking old timers I have met over the last 33 years. Furthermore - I'll be the first to admit that I wasn't half a knowledgeable, as he is, after my first 7 . . .10 or 12 years.

Keep up the good work James, it takes a lot of guts to put your opinions out there knowing someone may stomp on them. Which reminds me - if we were to stomp on your opinions, that would be using marriage of gravity, but if you were to take what was meant to be abuse and used it to your own advantage "that" would be reverse marriage of gravity.

Take care my friend,

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Partly. What I will go out on a limb to say is that, if you get the opening moves of a technique into ownership, you won't get the chance to finish it. Kenpoists tend to train for hand-speed that neglects to take the speed of collapsing bodies into account. There is a black belt who was out of Mr. Whites school who tells a story as a policeman...guy on a bus (I think with a knife)...narrow width to respond in. Bad guy makes the attack; kenpo guy initiates 5-swords...gets off the block and the chop. Palm heel strikes air. Why? The guy was downed from the hack to the neck.

Commercial kenpo has failure built into it...fall-back positions and successive strikes in the event the ideal phase doesn't take. Mr. Chapel has made training for success an integral part of the kenpo he teaches; the technique is taught in its entirety, but one must not expect to get that far when the front end of the tech is done correctly. The "what if" becomes "what if the guy falls to the floor before you finish the technique?". Oddly, the capacity for this was built into kenpo all along...most just don't have the eyes to see, or are unwilling to have them opened if it threatens their pre-existing understandings of possibility & limitation.

For as unrealistic as a technique may seem to you, remember this: Someone, somewhere, can pull it off without a hitch. So, is it really unrealistic?

Regards,

Dave

This is akin to Plato's "Allegory of the Cave".

Me, I teach the technique to work, ideal phase, if it doesn't the Even-IF comes into play, which leads back to ideal. The techniques are taught at many levels, but if you can't make it work ideal, how can you make the concepts that it entails work later? Changing the technique and teaching it the altered way robs future students of the value of the original they never got.

I won't argue the techniques are the vessel to teach the proper concepts, theories, and principles, otherwise, we'd be doing San Soo or JKD.

BTW, I agree completely with your statement above, less the COMMERCIAL KENPO reference.


DarK LorD

 

[Sapper6]

Mr. Hale, Mr. Hawkins, Dr. Dave, and all others who've taken the time to respond here,

thank you greatly for offering your ideas of what this statement means to you; even if it is met with confliction, it cannot be removed from your realm of understanding. thanks again. :asian:

while there very well may be other's who wish to offer insight into this perplexing statement, i feel at this point i somewhat understand what Mr. Parker might have intended to convey to his martial followers. while it may certainly not be perceived to mean the same to many others, well...can we say the same of anything? certainly not. but i do believe that is what was meant.

Several of American Kenpo's techniques aren't meant for combat in their "ideal" phase. They are there just to teach a certain principle(s) of motion.

to understand this statement, one must concede that not all of American Kenpo's techniques were completely "studio to the street" effective. that's not to say that they couldn't be effective, it's just saying that wasn't their main purpose for incorporation and that a superior motive existed behind it. to believe this is pure mind-boggling to laymen martial artists, yet makes perfect sense to the martial scientist. it's rather disturbing to think not everyone would possesses this level of understanding behind what they are doing in the combat arts. and even more disturbing knowing there are some that will commit their entire lives to such an endeavor, and die not even scratching the surface.

i wonder what drove Mr. Parker's inclination to explore these facets of fighting? i'm in awe of the scientific reasoning that had to be present during its inception.

thanks again.

:asian:

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

i wonder what drove Mr. Parker's inclination to explore these facets of fighting? i'm in awe of the scientific reasoning that had to be present during its inception.

thanks again.

:asian:

I feel the same way.

DarK LorD

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Mr. Hale, Mr. Hawkins, Dr. Dave, and all others who've taken the time to respond here,

thank you greatly for offering your ideas of what this statement means to you; even if it is met with confliction, it cannot be removed from your realm of understanding. thanks again. :asian:

while there very well may be other's who wish to offer insight into this perplexing statement, i feel at this point i somewhat understand what Mr. Parker might have intended to convey to his martial followers. while it may certainly not be perceived to mean the same to many others, well...can we say the same of anything? certainly not. but i do believe that is what was meant.



to understand this statement, one must concede that not all of American Kenpo's techniques were completely "studio to the street" effective. that's not to say that they couldn't be effective, it's just saying that wasn't their main purpose for incorporation and that a superior motive existed behind it. to believe this is pure mind-boggling to laymen martial artists, yet makes perfect sense to the martial scientist. it's rather disturbing to think not everyone would possesses this level of understanding behind what they are doing in the combat arts. and even more disturbing knowing there are some that will commit their entire lives to such an endeavor, and die not even scratching the surface.

i wonder what drove Mr. Parker's inclination to explore these facets of fighting? i'm in awe of the scientific reasoning that had to be present during its inception.

thanks again.

:asian:

You're welcome for my response and the underlined portion describes exactly what I believe. I don't knock other's beliefs as they have their own path on the journey and can support their beliefs as well. But that segment is exactly what I was trying to get across.

Respectfuly,
James

 

[Seabrook]

Take for example Dance of Death, Thundering Hammers, and The Sleeper. They all start out basically the same - executing a left inward block to your opponent's right punch, with your right arm hanging naturally at your side. Dance of Death then strikes low, Thundering Hammer strikes to the middle, and The Sleeper strikes high. Students often ask if they could strike to the groin (low) for Thundering Hammers, because they feel it would be more effective. I simply tell them that if anyone ever attacks them, on the street, with a right punch, they have my blessing to defend against it any way they please . . . but in class I want Thundering Hammer to be a middle level strike, because we are already practicing a low strike when we do Dance of Death.

The way I teach my students is somewhat different. I tell them that these three family related moves start the same (left inward block, right arm hangs naturally), but your choice of target on the next strike DEPENDS on the position of the opponent's left arm. If his left arm is low, go into Sleeper or depending on how low it is, Thundering Hammers; if it is high, you should do Dance of Death. This takes a close eye in watching for these positionings but it's really no different then what we do when sparring against skilled opponents.

If you don't watch for these arm positions of your opponent, and just arbitrarily choose any of the three techniques after the opponent does the step-through right punch, there is a greater probability that you won't be able to pull off your move.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Ray]

For me, part but not all of the practicality (or usefullness) of the techniques is akin to the contrived positions used in chess instruction. If the situation/position is familiar with one already known, then a course of action can be derived more quickly.

Another part of the usefullness of the techniques can be likened, in my mind, to the instruction of principles (again similar to chess: develop pieces quickly, don't waste time, don't weaken the pawn chain).

{but then again, I suck at chess too}

Another part of it is the movements themselves. Personally, I need some method of practicing strikes, blocks, etc. Using the techniques I can practice them, similar to a boxer practicing combinations.

Has a complete technique been used in a fight? I dunno, but certainly chunks have been. Somewhere (I don't recall where) I heard that the "technique" "Lone Kimono" originated when Mr. Parker witnessed someone grabbing Mr. Chow in that manner...(I'm certainly open to correction on that story).

 

[Rich_Hale]

The way I teach my students is somewhat different.

Hello Jamie,

You say you teach the techniques differently, but it sounds like we may not actually teach the techniques differently at all. For example; if I were to teach Thundering Hammers, in the air, to someone who has never seen it before, I would teach it with a mid level strike. Now if you were to teach the same technique under the same circumstances, but taught it with a low strike – that would be teaching the technique differently.

On the other hand, if we were teaching a student how to defend against a right punch, and offered up Thundering Hammers, Dance of Death, and The Sleeper as the evenings fare, it’s likely that we would both mix, and match, the pieces/parts in a made-to-order fashion, depending on a long list of variables.