technique forms

[Rich_Hale]

Kenpo Dave,

I'm aware of many techniques being around before the forms. My point is simply that Mr. Parker wasn't looking at the movements as self defense techniques when he created the forms. He was looking for combinations of movements that would best teach us his alphabet of motion.

It all goes back to perspective. I look at the forms as having combinations that are similar to our self defense techniques, but their purpose is to store, and teach, us the alphabet of motion - the self defense techniques pick it up from there and teach us how to use these basic combinations in a self defense situation.

I do see what you are saying and don't disagree with you, if you are looking at the combinations in the forms as self defense techniques. I just don't look at them that way, because neither Huk, Larry, or Mr. Parker ever referred to them that way (that I know of).

If Huk, Larry or Mr. Parker had told me that the form techniques were to be practiced and used (as taught in the form) for self defense, I'd be right there with you.

As I've stated on my web site, Mr. Parker taught me a few things, and I figure he taught everything else to someone else. If thats the case and a few other of Mr. Parkers personal students write in to say Mr. Parker did, in fact, teach the forms from a self defense point of view - I wouldn't argue, I'd just figure he had a reason for teaching me the way he did, and a reason for teaching someone else differently.

Take care,

 

[Doc]

Doc, then why did he choose those particular techniques to put in the forms?

Kevin

Mr. Hale is correct and you should probably re-read my post as well on page 2. Because YOU recognize a technique doesn't make it so. For me forms as taught to me by Mr. Parker were always indexes of information, NOT about techniques. It's still that way in my teaching. We already have techniques to teach. Forms and sets fill in the gaps not covered, and add additional layers of perspective.

 

[teej]

I know the origin of form 7, it's like a bad joke like other material as well. Parker was "pressured" into creating it, so they got what they asked for. Primarily because he didn't believe in it anyway.

It was a simple means to an end, and all the principles they would have seen had they been patient, are gone. The first club set he started was a single club as he worked toward doubles, but quite a few people stated they needed to have 2 clubs "like in Kali/Escrima," (you could see the smoke come out of his ears) so that's what they got. A crappy competition form with none of his principles, based on techniqes already in exsistence.

Now that makes a lot of sense. That would answer why some that learned or started to learn 7 and or 8 were disappointed. I have heard some claim that Mr. Parker could not have created these forms because they didn't follow previous principles [if I am recounting my memory on this discussion correctly] Now I understand why some practitioners like these forms but others express disappointment and or disbelief.

Thank you very much Doc for sharing this info and thanks again Kevin for this stimulatin question. I haven't thought this much in depth of our forms in a long while.

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej

 

[Doc]

Now that makes a lot of sense. That would answer why some that learned or started to learn 7 and or 8 were disappointed. I have heard some claim that Mr. Parker could not have created these forms because they didn't follow previous principles [if I am recounting my memory on this discussion correctly] Now I understand why some practitioners like these forms but others express disappointment and or disbelief.

Thank you very much Doc for sharing this info and thanks again Kevin for this stimulatin question. I haven't thought this much in depth of our forms in a long while.

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej

 

[Kenpobuff]

It's been my experience, albeit limited, that all of the forms contain the system's information. Short and long one seem to be based on basic movements and stances changes, no techniques perse. Short and long two seem to include basic and transitional movements and a sprinkling of some incomplete techniques. The same for short and long 3, but have more of the techniqes built-in but still the techs are for the most part incomplete and gaps are filled in with transitional moves. So with that observation I must side with Mr. Hale and "Doc" when they say that the kenpo's base forms are where the indexing of ideas are practiced and not the actual techniques themselves. Just because portions of techniques can be found in some of the forms doesn't necessarily mean they were derived from them entirely. I truely believe Mr. Parker had that in mind from the start when developing the system and saw how other arts were doing their systems.

My instructor has told me on a number of occassions that, as I prepare for my black belt test, if he can see me perform form 4 perfectly (without missing a stance or angle change, for example) that he knows from watching me whether or not I will be black belt material. He also added that I wouldn't necessarily have to do the techniques for him in order for him to know whether or not I have learned the "system" he teaches. I will still have to do the forms and techs by the way, lol. Nice to know the last four years hasn't been a waste. But in theory I understand better what he meant by those statements.

This leads me to conclude that the forms are based on the indexing of knowledge of the system of Kenpo or "motion science" for a lack of a better term, rather than the self defense technique application of that "science" or system.

We all realize that in an actual self defense situation that we will not complete a technique in its ideal form because of all the variables within the situation. But when we understand the system's information and how to move given the situation we are in a better position to defend ourselves or those around us.

At least that's my understanding today. Thanks Doc and Mr. Hale for reinforcing my ideas and making me think whether it's right or wrong.

 

[teej]

When creating the technique forms, what was the reason Mr. Parker chose THOSE PARTICULAR TECHNIQUES to put in the forms? I know each form is for a particular type of attack, but why those techniques? Any thoughts?

Kevin, I think that you may find that "particular techniques" were not just picked to go into a form, but that the technique was created FOR the form to fill a category, teach or show a progression. In other words, you may find that Mr. Parker had his plan on what he wanted to teach in the form. He knew or came up with the moves for what he wanted to teach and thus some techniques may have been created to fill a gap or to give the student new information.

Example, examine the 1st, 2nd and or 3rd moves of shrt 1, lng 1, shrt 2, lng 2, now look at the very 1st move of short 3. [the very 1st move of destructive twins] You should see a progression from shrt 1. Now was the techniqe Destructive Twins already around when shrt 3 created or was Destructive Twins created to be used in shrt 3 to complete a category? I do not know that. Our techniques were not just put together because Mr. Parker liked a certain block or punch. The techniques were put together to teach the student the different ways things could be dealt with.

You can block a certain way with one hand, one hand then the other, both at the same time, etc. Foot work has opposites and reverses. {examine foot work patterns and stances for these also} Look at all of your basic foot manuvers for moving forward, backward, to the sides, the different ways you can change directions. Were they used in a technique so it could be shown in a form?

Do you think Kevin that Mr. Parker could have looked at all of this, and planned how and when he wanted to teach it and when certain things should progress in certain forms? Then possibly he had to plan how to work the things he wanted to teach into the form and to do this, certain techniques were created?

Is it possible that certain techniques were not created to be used to defend ourselves with? Possibly the created technique was purely a tool to show and teach you certain information and the fact that the technique could, under the correct circumstances, be used to defend yourself with just an added benifit? Some things to ponder. So Kevin, the answer you seek you may very well have already. Is your answer in the forms? hhmm.......?

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej

 

[Monadnock]

I think running the forms with power and focus alone is not good.

I think knowing the forms frontwards and backwards in your head is not good.

Being able to DO and know WHY is probably the best combination.

I didn't read every post in the thread, but it seems as usuall more focus is given to the techniques in the forms and not enough to the transitions between them.