Tai Chi rooting vs takedowns...

Gerry Seymour

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When I refer to throw I don't mean the conceptual energy "throw". To be more specific, a technique to take an opponent down. This include throwing, sweeping and takedown techniques. The Tai Chi style I studied had takedowns. Not all takedowns require 2 opposing forces to be executed by the practitioner.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of a takedown or throw that doesn't use opposing forces, except some that I consider esoteric - meaning they don't have direct application (and even most of those require opposing forces). Can you describe one or point me to a video so I can understand what you're talking about?
 

Gerry Seymour

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By that same logic I'll drill holes in my car to make it go faster. Is there evidence that says doing so will make it faster? No. But there's no evidence that states that it won't. I'll start believing in fairies, goblins and witches too. Again, no evidence refutes their existence.
That goes beyond his statement. If I drive my car at the speed limit, you have no evidence it can go faster. But that doesn't prove it can't - just that it didn't. That's all he's saying. We can't say there's no takedown skill simply because we didn't see it used. Had we seen him try, and he had demonstrated that lack of takedown skill, then we'd have evidence. Lack of evidence is a good reason to be skeptical of claims (so we don't believe in fairy stories), but we can't really draw conclusions from it.
 

Gerry Seymour

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There are trips which are just a sweep variants, you position yourself close to your opponent, take his balance, and essentially walk through his space taking him to the ground.



So you do or don't consider that opposing forces? I don't know if you're using this as an example for or against opposing forces.



The only way for me to that is to break his torso in half and rotate the two halves independently. Meaning, both shoulders are going in the same direction, no opposing forces.
On that last one, you are correct that they'd both be going in the same circular direction. But that is opposing forces on his stance, and opposing forces from the thrower. One shoulder is being moved forward, and the other backward. That creates the opposing forces. For the throw to be effective, one shoulder has to (relatively) move up, and the other down, as well - still circling within the same plane, but opposing forces, nonetheless. Mind you, "opposing" is a relative term here. I could refer to these as "cooperating" forces, as well, since the push up and back on one side makes moving the other down and forward easier, and vice versa.
 

Gerry Seymour

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It's a circular motion, which are very prevalent in Tai Chi.


This isn't about what's effective, it's a response to your opposing forces comment. I gave you an example of a takedown without opposing forces.
A trip fits the "opposing forces" paradigm. The person is moving in one direction, and the stationary foot is the (philosophical) second force. (Speaking in physics terms, the moving leg actually exerts force against the stationary foot.)
 

Gerry Seymour

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You also have to switch between punching defence and takedown defence. Or swich between punching and takedown defence.
Ah, I see your point - you meant (as you said) adding strikes, not just changing to situation to strikes.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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More clearly stated, that clip shows no evidence of offensive skill.
Agree! If you train

- throw, you will take down your opponent all your life.
- strong rooting, you will be taken down all your life.

If you train

- iron palm, you will punch on your opponent all your life.
- iron shirt, you will be punched all your life.

The defense skill does not equal to the offense skill.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Except that most taiji people, when it comes to application of the skills, do not enter competitions.

Most don't. I'd say that the Tai Chi practitioner in the second video was setting up a "competition" in order to show off the effectiveness of his art - he was just rigging the competition in his favor.

(I don't know what the context was for the first video. That looks more like a friendly sharing of experience.)
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Off the top of my head, I can't think of a takedown or throw that doesn't use opposing forces, except some that I consider esoteric - meaning they don't have direct application (and even most of those require opposing forces). Can you describe one or point me to a video so I can understand what you're talking about?
The only 1 point contact throw that I can think of is the foot sweep. When your opponent steps in, you sweep his leading leg without upper body pulling force. It only works against beginner and it requires good timing. I have never seen it ever works on the wrestling mat against experienced wrestler yet.
 

Xue Sheng

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The only 1 point contact throw that I can think of is the foot sweep. When your opponent steps in, you sweep his leading leg without upper body pulling force. It only works against beginner and it requires good timing. I have never seen it ever works on the wrestling mat against experienced wrestler yet.

Snake Creeps down Yang Style and Wu Style can be applied as a throw
So can the transition from Grasp the Sparrow's Tail (Ward Off, Left; Ward Off, Right; Roll Back; Press; Push) to single Whip, but a takedown or Qinna would be easier to do here
There is another Posture in Northern Wu style that is a pick up and a throw, sorry I cannot remember the name of the posture
And I believe there is at least 1 throw in Chen, although I would have to check.

But you are correct in saying there are by far more sweeps, takedowns, pushes that throws. There is also a lot more Qinna than ther are throws in most Taijiquan forms
 

Gerry Seymour

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The only 1 point contact throw that I can think of is the foot sweep. When your opponent steps in, you sweep his leading leg without upper body pulling force. It only works against beginner and it requires good timing. I have never seen it ever works on the wrestling mat against experienced wrestler yet.
I'd say even that requires opposing forces - you're just not providing both. The reason it works on beginners and not experienced folks is that the experienced folks learn to remove the second force (either forward momentum or downward force on the swept leg) or to stymie the force you put in (rooted enough to stop a weak sweep). Mind you, that's my interpretation of what I think you're referring to, so your interpretation might be different or I might be talking about something different.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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the experienced folks learn to remove the second force (either forward momentum or downward force on the swept leg) or to stymie the force you put in (rooted enough to stop a weak sweep).
The difference between a beginner and an experienced person is the experienced person can shift weight from one leg to the other leg faster. The foot sweep is the easiest throw that one can escape. All he needs to do is to bend his leg at his knee joint and let the sweeping leg to pass under it. To drop more weight and turn the shin bone into the sweep is another way to counter it. I like the 2nd approach better. I always like to take advantage than just escape. Most of the time when my opponent sweeps me, I can take him down with single leg.
 
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Anarax

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I'm not sure how much of a factor that is. Those who train without shoes don't tend to get best use of grippy-soled shoes. Some of that is on purpose (as in my case, since dress shoes aren't usually very grippy, for instance).

Considering the TC practitioner wasn't sliding around with his shoes on, the shoes have a type of sole that grips the mats to some degree. Are they providing cleat level gripping, probably not, but they still played a factor.
 

Anarax

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Off the top of my head, I can't think of a takedown or throw that doesn't use opposing forces, except some that I consider esoteric - meaning they don't have direct application (and even most of those require opposing forces). Can you describe one or point me to a video so I can understand what you're talking about?

I took Tai Chi and we had takedowns/throws/sweeps, other Tai Chi styles have them as well. I was responding to Kung Fu Wang's comment on opposing forces by giving examples of takedown/throws/sweeps without without opposing forces. He himself used the Diagonal Fly technique as an example, in which you block the leg. That's in Tai Chi, but yet the block isn't considered an opposing force for that technique. The shoulder twist motion Wang was referring to is a circular technique done with both hands. That's not opposing forces nor does it violate a Tai Chi concept. It seems the term "force" is what's causing some confusion. If you look at the Tai Chi forms with that definition of "force", there's a lot of opposing forces.
 

drop bear

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The only 1 point contact throw that I can think of is the foot sweep. When your opponent steps in, you sweep his leading leg without upper body pulling force. It only works against beginner and it requires good timing. I have never seen it ever works on the wrestling mat against experienced wrestler yet.

Choke slam.
 

Anarax

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That goes beyond his statement. If I drive my car at the speed limit, you have no evidence it can go faster. But that doesn't prove it can't - just that it didn't. That's all he's saying. We can't say there's no takedown skill simply because we didn't see it used. Had we seen him try, and he had demonstrated that lack of takedown skill, then we'd have evidence. Lack of evidence is a good reason to be skeptical of claims (so we don't believe in fairy stories), but we can't really draw conclusions from it.

My examples were based off the same logic though. If I entered a race and lost, everyone could just make the excuse "he was capable of so much more", even though it's a competition and I didn't win. Believing anyone has these amazing dormant skills even though they don't demonstrate it in a "competition" seems presumptuous.
 

Anarax

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A trip fits the "opposing forces" paradigm. The person is moving in one direction, and the stationary foot is the (philosophical) second force. (Speaking in physics terms, the moving leg actually exerts force against the stationary foot.)

It seems the term "force" for this thread is very loose. I was approaching it from the scientific standpoint, as you did. That's why I asked wang if he considered his example was or wasn't for opposing forces. I took Tai Chi and we didn't use this "philosophical" definition of force.
 

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By that same logic I'll drill holes in my car to make it go faster. Is there evidence that says doing so will make it faster? No. But there's no evidence that states that it won't. I'll start believing in fairies, goblins and witches too. Again, no evidence refutes their existence.
Ok, well, these are your problems. Good luck with them.
 

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