Tai Chi rooting vs takedowns...
- Thread starter TMA17
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I talked with a Chen style guy a few years ago who went to try out an MMA gym and he was having a blast. He said he had never had to deal with that much force coming at him at that speed before and that the MMA guys had never had to deal with someone who was so relaxed and rooted. He was learning a lot and the MMA guys that were learning how to deal with his relaxation and root.
I have not gone toe to toe with a Judo or MMA guy but I can say from experience that many of the demos I have been at for other arts, that they have a real issue with the relaxation of taijiquan. Been told many times that I can't relax like that. Problem is it is automatic and has been for a long time. However with that said, was once at a "Fumio Demura" seminar years ago and I was working with a partner on a takedown and he kept having issues. I tried not to relax, but neither of us were getting anyplace. He asked Mr Demura what to do and explained the situation. Mr Demura then tried the same thing on me....and threw me on the floor. Said relaxed or not relaxed made no difference. Been on the floor many times due to my taiji shifu's response to something I was doing too.
I have not gone toe to toe with a Judo or MMA guy but I can say from experience that many of the demos I have been at for other arts, that they have a real issue with the relaxation of taijiquan. Been told many times that I can't relax like that. Problem is it is automatic and has been for a long time. However with that said, was once at a "Fumio Demura" seminar years ago and I was working with a partner on a takedown and he kept having issues. I tried not to relax, but neither of us were getting anyplace. He asked Mr Demura what to do and explained the situation. Mr Demura then tried the same thing on me....and threw me on the floor. Said relaxed or not relaxed made no difference. Been on the floor many times due to my taiji shifu's response to something I was doing too.
It's not the stance that can help you to resist take down. It's the "body vibration ability" that does. It's hard to grab on a live fish because it vibrates. It's hard to take down someone if his body vibrates just enough to cancel your force.
Next time if someone says that he has strong rooting, you can use this "elephant nose embracing" on him. The harder that you use your forearm to strike up his groin, the higher that he will jump up. It doesn't matter what stance that he may be in.
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Sooo hit him in the nuts?It's not the stance that can help you to resist take down. It's the "body vibration ability" that does. It's hard to grab on a live fish because it vibrates. It's hard to take down someone if his body vibrates just enough to cancel your force.
Next time if someone says that he has strong rooting, you can use this "elephant nose embracing" on him. The harder that you use your forearm to strike up his groin, the higher that he will jump up. It doesn't matter what stance that he may be in.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Well a lot of defence to judo style throws is having hips lower than the other guy. Nut shot would prevent that.
This is why I don't like wrestling only sport when kick and punch are not allowed. One may develop bad habit and doesn't have enough alert to the head punch.
Anarax
Master Black Belt
The Tai Chi guys looks to be very relaxed and are holding a good stance. However; it looks like the Judo guys aren't trying very hard, this could be from a prior arrangement before hand, or them not wanting to for their own reasons. Overall, the videos seem to have a biased feel to them.
That's not what I got from it. In the first video, the guy wasn't exactly aggressive, but it didn't seem like he was going easy, more like it was just a friendly match. In the second one, the guy looked serious, but it is very tough to deal with a low wide stance like that in grappling, especially if it's not something that you're used to.
Anarax
Master Black Belt
It's poor representation any way you cut it. Having the Tai Chi practitioner "proving" something against an uncommitted opponent from another discipline "proves" nothing. The first video is only in french, thus I'm going off what I see. There's clearly a bias judging by the video titles and the question the Tai Chi practioner asks "which is stronger judo or taiji?". The camera crew meeting with the Tai Chi practitioner first then going to the Judo school shows bias as well. The second video is shot in China and they are trying to prove how much "stronger "Tai Chi" is than Judo, questionable objectivity to say the least.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
The first video he was being toyed with. Especially on the ground.
First video is Tai Chi vs BJJ, not Judo. The Tai Chi guy demonstrated some legit skills standing, but he was just outclassed. He got taken down fairly easily, but by someone who was both highly skilled and much younger and more athletic. Once on the ground, he was more out of his element and the BJJ guy could have submitted him easily, but was being friendly and was content to just stay on top.
The second video I think was a bit of a setup by prior arrangement, although you need some experience to see it. The Tai Chi guy had a good base, but no more so than an equivalently skilled Judo practitioner. The Judo player seemed to go for some legitimate throws, but he didn't set them up the way he would in competition. He voluntarily went for a no-gi style clinch rather than taking grips on his opponents uniform as would be normal in Judo competition. He didn't use grip fighting, feints, combinations, or proper kuzushi to setup the opening for a throw the way you have to against an opponent who has a good base and is being completely defensive the way the Tai Chi practitioner was.
The second video I think was a bit of a setup by prior arrangement, although you need some experience to see it. The Tai Chi guy had a good base, but no more so than an equivalently skilled Judo practitioner. The Judo player seemed to go for some legitimate throws, but he didn't set them up the way he would in competition. He voluntarily went for a no-gi style clinch rather than taking grips on his opponents uniform as would be normal in Judo competition. He didn't use grip fighting, feints, combinations, or proper kuzushi to setup the opening for a throw the way you have to against an opponent who has a good base and is being completely defensive the way the Tai Chi practitioner was.
Yeah, but the other guy wasn't 'going easy' on him
In both videos the TC guys had good base
In the 1st video the grappler didn't deal with the grab around his neck which would have put him on top with a big advantage. The grip being used is relatively easy to release - I don't know why he didn't take that opportunity
The 2nd video was a good example of asymmetric objectives. The TC guy wasn't trying to throw, it looked to me like he was stalling while the judo player tried to throw him - which gives the advantage to the TC guy
Good videos 'though
In the 1st video the grappler didn't deal with the grab around his neck which would have put him on top with a big advantage. The grip being used is relatively easy to release - I don't know why he didn't take that opportunity
The 2nd video was a good example of asymmetric objectives. The TC guy wasn't trying to throw, it looked to me like he was stalling while the judo player tried to throw him - which gives the advantage to the TC guy
Good videos 'though
He was being nice to a guy who was significantly older and not experienced on the ground. Most of the ways to force a quick release against an opponent who is stubbornly holding on to the neck involve inflicting some discomfort. He was in no danger from the neck grab, so he choose to just chill on top rather than force the issue. Sometimes when I'm in the same position, I'll wait and let the other person figure out that the grab gives them no advantage other than stalling and see if they release it on their own before I force a release.
Trust me, the BJJ guy was taking it very easy on him. He could have been a lot meaner once it went to the ground.
I don't mean easy in the sense that he was taking it light. I mean it in the sense that he was making sure he was in no real danger the entire time. He never gave the talki guy anything to make him look better.
I can agree with that. On the other hand, the Tai Chi practitioner was being pretty defensive the whole time (other than one attempt at a reversal), so it's not like the BJJ guy had to do a whole lot to keep himself safe.
A famous Chinese wrestling instructor made a public statement that if anybody could take him down just once, he would give that person a black belt in Chinese wrestling. If you have good wrestling skill and play 100% defense, it will be very difficult for anybody to take you down. This is why in Chinese wrestling, people will
- respect you by playing offense and fail (For example, you move in with a hip throw, your opponent drags you down).
- look down on you by playing defense and win (For example, your opponent moves in with a hip throw, you drag him down).
The reason is simple. The person who uses hip throw, he will be good at it someday. The person who uses hip throw counter, he will never be able to develop hip throw.
If you try to wait for a Taiji guy to make a move, that will never happen. IMO, the best way to deal with a 100% defensive Taiji guy is to drag his arm and run in circle. It doesn't matter what his respond may be, as long as he starts to shift weight from one leg to another. You can then take advantage on it.
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Yep. When I'm teaching takedowns I have to emphasize that I'd rather see a student try for a throw ten times and get reversed every time than to just play defense and stay on their feet the whole time. You learn by trying and failing (and eventually succeeding). You don't learn by just hanging back and playing it safe.
This is one reason why Judo classes spend so much time on ukemi (falling). If a student doesn't feel comfortable taking a fall, they'll be afraid to attack and thereby expose themselves to a counter-throw.
(It's also why wrestling and Judo competition both have penalties for stalling - if both parties play it too safe nothing will ever happen.)
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