Tai Chi rooting vs takedowns...

Xue Sheng

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Kung Fu Wang

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It's also why wrestling and Judo competition both have penalties for stalling - if both parties play it too safe nothing will ever happen.
Many years ago, there was a national level Chinese wrestling tournament in Taiwan. During the championship fight, both persons played defense. Neither person was willing to attack. My teacher was the chief judge in that tournament. He made both persons disqualified. The 3rd place then became the 1st place. The 4th place also became the 2nd place. It cause a big argument for a long time.

IMO, if one is afraid to take the risk, MA is not for that person.
 

Flying Crane

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Many years ago, there was a national level Chinese wrestling tournament in Taiwan. During the championship fight, both persons played defense. Neither person was willing to attack. My teacher was the chief judge in that tournament. He made both persons disqualified. The 3rd place then became the 1st place. The 4th place also became the 2nd place. It cause a big argument for a long time.

IMO, if one is afraid to take the risk, MA is not for that person.
That could be a viable strategy for self defense. Winning the fight doesnt matter. Getting home safe does. Deflecting attacks until an opportunity to escape presents counts as a win, in that case.

In competition, thats different. Something needs to happen to advance the encounter. Its a different set of goals.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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That could be a viable strategy for self defense. Winning the fight doesnt matter. Getting home safe does. Deflecting attacks until an opportunity to escape presents counts as a win, in that case.
Self-defense is more than just to defend yourself. If you are alone, you can play 100% defense.

- block all the kicks and punches (test your defense skill),
- run away if you can (test your running speed).

When you have to defend your love one, friend, or a stranger, you don't have that luxury.
 

drop bear

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That could be a viable strategy for self defense. Winning the fight doesnt matter. Getting home safe does. Deflecting attacks until an opportunity to escape presents counts as a win, in that case.

In competition, thats different. Something needs to happen to advance the encounter. Its a different set of goals.

Striking changes the dynamics of that though.
 

Anarax

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While rewatching the videos I noticed the Tai Chi guys had shoes on, while the bjj and judo guys were barefoot. Having shoes helps to grip the mats and aids in stability. Though that wasn't the deciding factor in the outcomes, it definitely played a factor.
 

Flying Crane

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Self-defense is more than just to defend yourself. If you are alone, you can play 100% defense.

- block all the kicks and punches (test your defense skill),
- run away if you can (test your running speed).

When you have to defend your love one, friend, or a stranger, you don't have that luxury.
Sure, and we can what if? the thing to death. That doesnt change the fact that it can be a viable strategy.
 

Anarax

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Having an opponent that isn't only defensive but refuses to engage is difficult regardless of any art. The point some people are making on here is that it's a lot easier to not get thrown if one is only focusing on not getting thrown. Which is a valid point, though there are other factors in the videos that played into the outcomes
 

Flying Crane

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Having an opponent that isn't only defensive but refuses to engage is difficult regardless of any art. The point some people are making on here is that it's a lot easier to not get thrown if one is only focusing on not getting thrown. Which is a valid point, though there are other factors in the videos that played into the outcomes
Well, it is an aspect of not playing by the other guys rules. Dont play his game; play your own game. And if the issue is self defense and not competition, then its a good approach to take.

In that case, it matters nothing if the encounter is stifled. In fact, that can be the very point of self defense: prevent the bad guy from having his way with you. You dont need to engage and defeat him. You just need to keep yourself safe. If that means stifling the encounter until you can escape, then do it.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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If we look at this clip, the judo guy tries to attack the Taiji guy's leg by:

- sweep (1.55, 1.57),
- spring (1.56),
- cut (2.28, 2.32, 2.38).

At that moment, the Judo guy is standing on single leg. Through the entire match, the Taiji guy has both feet on the ground. The Judo guy has "leg skill". The Taiji guy has no "leg skill".

If the Taiji guy always plays defense only, he will never develop any "leg skill" through his entire life. As the throwing skill is concern, the Judo guy has good future. The Taiji guy has not.

[/QUOTE]
 

Anarax

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Well, it is an aspect of not playing by the other guys rules. Dont play his game; play your own game. And if the issue is self defense and not competition, then its a good approach to take.

In that case, it matters nothing if the encounter is stifled. In fact, that can be the very point of self defense: prevent the bad guy from having his way with you. You dont need to engage and defeat him. You just need to keep yourself safe. If that means stifling the encounter until you can escape, then do it.

The context of the point is the video though. Having a style vs style video encounter is to demonstrate how one style fairs against the other, though that's rarely the outcome. The Tai Chi guys lowering themselves and not going for any techniques, in the context of the video, proves nothing.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The Tai Chi guys lowering themselves and not going for any techniques, ...
Judo is a throwing art system and has all kind of throwing techniques. What kind of throwing technique does Taiji have? If Taiji truly doesn't have throwing technique (besides "diagonal fly" - shoulder strike), may be we should not expect too much throwing technique out of a Taiji guy.

If Taiji can add in "leg skill" such as:

- leg scoop into Peng,
- leg spring into Lu.
- leg cut into Ji.
- leg hook into An,

Taiji Peng, Lu, Ji, An can be mapped into perfect throws. All throws require 2, or even 3 contact points. The issue is most Taiji skill only deal with 1 contact point. If one only thinks about 1 contact point, he can only push his opponent away. He can't throw his opponent down.
 
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That could be a viable strategy for self defense. Winning the fight doesnt matter. Getting home safe does. Deflecting attacks until an opportunity to escape presents counts as a win, in that case.
This can sometimes be a valid tactic in a self-defense context - especially if the situation allows the defender to keep retreating in order to avoid engagement.

It's not typically such a good idea in a training context, even if you are training for self-defense, for a few reasons:

  • Part of developing a really good defense against a certain attack (whether it's striking or takedowns) is understanding and getting competent at the attack yourself. (Just as mastering an attack requires understanding the defenses against it.)
  • Even a defensive strategy is greatly bolstered by having an effective offense in your tool box. If an opponent has no cause to be concerned about your ability to do anything to him, he can commit 100% to his attack with no fear of repercussion.
  • Many self-defense scenarios do not allow the luxury of just retreating and defending the whole time. They occur suddenly at close range, with avenues for retreat blocked off. Even if you just want to get home safely you may have to hurt or take down your attacker long enough to make your escape.
There's a place in training for purely defensive and evasive drills, but they don't take away the need to practice offense as well.
 

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The context of the point is the video though. Having a style vs style video encounter is to demonstrate how one style fairs against the other, though that's rarely the outcome. The Tai Chi guys lowering themselves and not going for any techniques, in the context of the video, proves nothing.
Except that most taiji people, when it comes to application of the skills, do not enter competitions. As much as a purely defensive tactic disrupts a competition, it is still a viable strategy and skill for a taiji guy.

The problem is in trying to compare skills between people with very different goals. What is seen as bad play by one party is a good idea for the other.
 

Flying Crane

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This can sometimes be a valid tactic in a self-defense context - especially if the situation allows the defender to keep retreating in order to avoid engagement.

It's not typically such a good idea in a training context, even if you are training for self-defense, for a few reasons:

  • Part of developing a really good defense against a certain attack (whether it's striking or takedowns) is understanding and getting competent at the attack yourself. (Just as mastering an attack requires understanding the defenses against it.)
  • Even a defensive strategy is greatly bolstered by having an effective offense in your tool box. If an opponent has no cause to be concerned about your ability to do anything to him, he can commit 100% to his attack with no fear of repercussion.
  • Many self-defense scenarios do not allow the luxury of just retreating and defending the whole time. They occur suddenly at close range, with avenues for retreat blocked off. Even if you just want to get home safely you may have to hurt or take down your attacker long enough to make your escape.
There's a place in training for purely defensive and evasive drills, but they don't take away the need to practice offense as well.
I dont disagree with you. But I am pointing out that being able to nullify the attacks is a valuable and useful skill, depending on the situation and the goals of the participants. It can work.
 

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Judo is a throwing art system and has all kind of throwing techniques. What kind of throwing technique does Taiji have? If Taiji truly doesn't have throwing technique (besides "diagonal fly" - shoulder strike), may be we should not expect too much throwing technique out of a Taiji guy.

If Taiji can add in "leg skill" such as:

- leg scoop into Peng,
- leg spring into Lu.
- leg cut into Ji.
- leg hook into An,

Taiji Peng, Lu, Ji, An can be mapped into perfect throws. All throws require 2, or even 3 contact points. The issue is most Taiji skill only deal with 1 contact point. If one only thinks about 1 contact point, he can only push his opponent away. He can't throw his opponent down.

So you're saying they have throwing techniques but we shouldn't expect them to use the techniques? In the second video the the Tai Chi practitioner sought out the Judo practitioner. By his own words he's trying to prove which is "stronger." However; he's not able to do anything against the Judo practitioner. Imagine a Tai Chi practitioner entered an open martial arts competition with the intention of showing how "strong" Tai Chi is. He then proceeds to beat everyone thus "proving" his point. However; if he lost against everyone you can just fallback on "we shouldn't expect much" because of technique differences. I believe the Tai Chi practitioner's approach in the video is wrong. If he wants to show the applications of Tai Chi, the are more productive ways to go about it.
 

Anarax

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Except that most taiji people, when it comes to application of the skills, do not enter competitions. As much as a purely defensive tactic disrupts a competition, it is still a viable strategy and skill for a taiji guy.

The problem is in trying to compare skills between people with very different goals. What is seen as bad play by one party is a good idea for the other.

Then why enter into a competition with a Judo guy and not showcase how "strong" your style is. If the Tai Chi practitioner's goal was to showcase his style, he chose an unproductive way to show it. If a Karate practitioner entered into a BJJ competition to showcase the power of Karate, he chose a poor means to do so. There's application in Tai Chi, but it's not demonstrated in the videos.
 

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Then why enter into a competition with a Judo guy and not showcase how "strong" your style is. If the Tai Chi practitioner's goal was to showcase his style, he chose an unproductive way to show it. If a Karate practitioner entered into a BJJ competition to showcase the power of Karate, he chose a poor means to do so. There's application in Tai Chi, but it's not demonstrated in the videos.
Well, what is wrong with showing that he can nullify an attack?
 
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