TaeKwonDo sparrring: Does it resemble your forms?

[Doomx2001]

I was curious as to if any of you guys try to spar using the stances, blocks, and hand strikes that you do in your poomse or forms?

I notice in alot of Taekwondo schools and in alot of Hapkido schools, the sparring by students looks nothing like how they train, and often resembles kickboxing leaving out every block they ever learned, every strike, and every joint lock. Heck, really the majority of martial arts suffer from this problem whether they are Korean styles or Japanese styles.

Why do you guys think that is, and in your all's opinion, is that a good or bad thing?

I say this observation not with malice or anything intended to be negative or hurtful. I just think that forms were made to reflect the way we train, so that we can practice our stances, blocks, strikes, and few hidden things solo on our own when without a partner to work with. But these days, regardless of the martial art, all I see is kick boxing. Its personally disappointing to me.

- Brian

 

[Cyriacus]

Youre looking at it the wrong way. Yes, I use Straight Punches, Forearm Blocks, and I use a Stance. Does it look likes it does in the forms? Nope. I dont punch from the hip, I dont like the fighting stance used in forms much, and the blocks in forms are exaggerated a bit compared to just jamming it out.
They dont resemble Kickboxing. Kickboxing is based largely on Karate. And like Boxing, Kickboxing pretty much looks like anything else, because it gives the students the ability to tailor what theyre doing. Its only a bad thing when the style isnt MEANT to look anything like Kickboxing. But when it does, its not that it looks like Kickboxing. Its that Kickboxing looks like just about everything else. Right now, brainstorm every fathomable way of throwing a simple straight punch, and I promise You a Boxer, Kickboxer, or Thai Boxer has or does do or has done it. Youre not seeing Kickboxing, Youre seeing Striking. Kickboxing is Punches and Kicks, sometimes Knees. Theres only so many ways to Punch Kick and Knee. So for fun, Im going to say that Kickboxing has Punching that resembles Boxing. Therefore Kickboxing has something wrong with it.
Before You say that Kickboxing has the word Boxing in it, look up what Boxing actually means.

I think its a good thing. Because if thats the methods that are working for these, how shall we say, styles, of striking, it must be a pretty successful approach to striking, or it wouldnt be so widespread.

 

[rainesr]

In Silat our form stances are actually quite similar (a little lower) to how we spar as are the origin of our attacks. When I took kung fu we had a tournament and we performed forms, when we sparred we had to fight from our form. We had to understand that form enough to use it. Obviously we did not perform the form while sparring. The stances were a little higher and sloppy compared to the form but the style of the form was captured, mostly. In both Silat and Kung Fu we could perform throws and locks in sparring. It makes using the forms easier.

Now in Tang Soo Do our sparring was very different from our forms, far more simmilar to the differences in TKD sparring and forms from what I saw at tounaments. Once we really dove in to applications in the forms the stances and "origins of attack" were neccesary for the applications to work. We still never sparred that way though.



~Rob

 

[Dirty Dog]

Forms are a teaching tool, not a combat tool. Their techniques are somewhat exagerated and rigid (i.e. all inside middle blocks should have exactly the same chamber and follow exactly the same line to exactly the same endpoint). Once the concept is learned, then it can be adapted as needed for application to a specific and unique set of circumstances.

 

[Doomx2001]

I think its a good thing. Because if thats the methods that are working for these, how shall we say, styles, of striking, it must be a pretty successful approach to striking, or it wouldnt be so widespread.

My only concern is shouldn't a poomse reflect how your spar, and shouldn't how you spar reflect your poomse? Meaning, shouldn't they be one in the same? Because if not, then what is the point? Poomse solely as an exercise still has validity, but without the mudo, the original intent is lost.

 

[Doomx2001]

Forms are a teaching tool, not a combat tool. Their techniques are somewhat exagerated and rigid (i.e. all inside middle blocks should have exactly the same chamber and follow exactly the same line to exactly the same endpoint). Once the concept is learned, then it can be adapted as needed for application to a specific and unique set of circumstances.

I agree totally with what you said. Once someone is in a fight, there are no rules, only survival. So adaptability is key. I would like to add, that any form should be a teaching tool that complements your self defense techniques and your self-defense techniques should complement your form. I rarely see, for example, in a sparring match, someone do a inside block to move someones arm out of the way exposing the ribs so that they can take a rib shot. Or, someone blocks a punch, pulls their opponents arm chambered to their hip exposing their opponents ribs while taking their balance. I would like to see more of that in traditional striking arts.

 

[Doomx2001]

Anyway, I just want to say this is just a good nature discussion, nothing hostile toward anyone or anybodies personal views on things. I just thought this would be a interesting topic to discuss to get different view points, and also some ideas as to why people spar differently from how they train. Its all good.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I agree totally with what you said. Once someone is in a fight, there are no rules, only survival. So adaptability is key. I would like to add, that any form should be a teaching tool that complements your self defense techniques and your self-defense techniques should complement your form. I rarely see, for example, in a sparring match, someone do a inside block to move someones arm out of the way exposing the ribs so that they can take a rib shot. Or, someone blocks a punch, pulls their opponents arm chambered to their hip exposing their opponents ribs while taking their balance. I would like to see more of that in traditional striking arts.

That's as much a function of the ruleset as anything. In many (most?) striking arts schools, that sort of grappling isn't allowed in sparring. When it is, I suspect you'd see much what you describe. When presented with an opportunity to grab and a ruleset that allows it I certainly will do so.
It's still not going to look like forms, since the chances of my opponent throwing their attack in exactly the same place as that assumed by the designers of poomsae.

 

[Cyriacus]

My only concern is shouldn't a poomse reflect how your spar, and shouldn't how you spar reflect your poomse? Meaning, shouldn't they be one in the same? Because if not, then what is the point? Poomse solely as an exercise still has validity, but without the mudo, the original intent is lost.

Sparring is not fighting. Forms certainly isnt Sparring.
For some Martial Arts, they can be much closer to each other.

Whats the point? Good question. I dont like Forms much at all. I prefer to practice things the way theyre used. As far as I know, Forms are an exercise in Control, Technique, and Coordination.

 

[Doomx2001]

That's as much a function of the ruleset as anything. In many (most?) striking arts schools, that sort of grappling isn't allowed in sparring. When it is, I suspect you'd see much what you describe. When presented with an opportunity to grab and a ruleset that allows it I certainly will do so.

That is a really good point!!! Rules would take alot of the Mudo out of it.

 

[Doomx2001]

Sparring is not fighting. Forms certainly isnt Sparring.

I agree.

 

[Gnarlie]

I think whether or not one perceives sparring as similar to poomsae depends on how one views poomsae: direct and literal or indirect and non-literal.

We all certainly use principles illustrated in poomsae every time we spar. Blocking with one or two hands, manipulating balance shifting the centre of gravity, using gravity to assist in power generation, turning to generate power, attacking when the time is right, giving when the time is right, gaining advantageous positioning at the right time through footwork etc.

While looking for literal and direct applications for poomsae movements is fun and challenging, I think poomsae's real value is in strategy and principle lessons. I think the poomsae teach one single skill: how to move. But that single skill is made up of many principles, strategies and tactics. Loose free sparring is just what poomsae and the principles taught therein look like under application.

In our classes, we have several different types of sparring allowing different techniques. Kick sparring a la Olympics is just a facet of sparring. Other, more diverse sparring can look a bit closer to the literal poomsae techniques.

Gnarlie

 

[ralphmcpherson]

poomsae develops other things also, such as balance, upper leg strength, core strength, co ordination etc etc

 

[StudentCarl]

Done correctly, forms teach the fundamentals of effective technique so you have balance, power, and effective defense. Posture and stance are critical fundamentals of power generation--stance changes alone have much to teach. The use of the non-striking hand to protect as well as generate push-pull force is also basic. My experience is that people who have learned good technique in their forms have good mechanics at speed when sparring or fighting. IMO, one reason Taekwondo is an Olympic sport is that it is a technical art: good technique gives speed and power. It's much more than aggression and bludgeoning an opponent, though I've seen people try that at tournaments too. I hope sport poomsae competition continues to grow, as it highlights the high level of technical skills possible with practice. Forms practice is essential to developing deeper understanding of movement and technique.
Carl

 

[Earl Weiss]

Sparring is not fighting. Forms certainly isnt Sparring.
.

Ditto.

Do you ask boxers why they do speed bag work? Doesn't llok l;ike how they "Spar". Same with a lot of heavy Bag Work. Not how they spar.

TKD has several components not to be done or viewed in Isolation. These include: Fundamental movements, Dallyon (conditioning) Patterns, Self defense techniques, and sparring.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

With no offense intended, I feel that it is often a lack of understanding on what the form/kata has to offer. And this isn't limited to the Korean arts, I've seen it in many Okinawan/Japanese arts as well that, in my opinion, have moved rather far from the meaning of the source material. I am an advocate of forms being an excellent source of combat-worthy material in the form of strikes (to include kicks/elbows/knees etc), defenses, locks, throws etc as well as principles and strategy. I feel that one could take just a single form and spend an entire year (or more) training in all the aspects it will offer.

The reason sparring doesn't really resemble forms/kata is that sparring isn't real fighting. Again, no disrespect intended. But sparring isn't fighting from the perspective of a real fight, with a real person, that really wants to hurt you and is under no obligation to observe a rule set used in a controlled, artifical environment. From a L.E. perspective, we teach that statistically a fight lasts an average of seven seconds with injury occurring in the first three seconds. Sparring isn't designed to stop a fight within that time frame, whereas the material presented in a form/kata if used correctly is designed to be a fight stopper (or whatever may be appropriate to the situation). I'm speaking of sparring as it is typically used i.e. with a sport-venue in mind (rules, points, resetting position etc). Sparring can, and in my opinion should reflect forms/kata if the focus is on something other than a sport venue.

 

[rainesr]

It seems like many places neglect teaching students how enter, get really close, stay close, and cause damage while being nearly body to body. This is where the forms as I have been taught are really effective, close is where proper structure and body mechanics make all the difference.

Point sparring really does not teach those things because of the position resets and rules. There are lessons in sparring for sure but the game of point sparring can develop habits that do not translate to self defense.


~Rob

 

[Kong Soo Do]

It seems like many places neglect teaching students how enter, get really close, stay close, and cause damage while being nearly body to body. This is where the forms as I have been taught are really effective, close is where proper structure and body mechanics make all the difference.

I use to say that one needed the ability to be able to fight inside a phone booth. But nowadays you'd be hard pressed to find a phone booth But you offer a great point about getting in close and staying there. The forms/kata do a great job of detailing that and making it a usable/viable option.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It seems like many places neglect teaching students how enter, get really close, stay close, and cause damage while being nearly body to body. This is where the forms as I have been taught are really effective, close is where proper structure and body mechanics make all the difference.

Point sparring really does not teach those things because of the position resets and rules. There are lessons in sparring for sure but the game of point sparring can develop habits that do not translate to self defense.


~Rob

In part, that might well be because given the prevalence of kicking in Korean arts in general and taekwondo specifically (which is what this thread is about), getting in close and staying in close is counter to some of the basic concepts of the art.

Proper structure and body mechanics make all the difference at ALL ranges.

 

[WaterGal]

Done correctly, forms teach the fundamentals of effective technique so you have balance, power, and effective defense. Posture and stance are critical fundamentals of power generation--stance changes alone have much to teach. The use of the non-striking hand to protect as well as generate push-pull force is also basic. My experience is that people who have learned good technique in their forms have good mechanics at speed when sparring or fighting. IMO, one reason Taekwondo is an Olympic sport is that it is a technical art: good technique gives speed and power. It's much more than aggression and bludgeoning an opponent, though I've seen people try that at tournaments too. I hope sport poomsae competition continues to grow, as it highlights the high level of technical skills possible with practice. Forms practice is essential to developing deeper understanding of movement and technique.
Carl

I agree with this. Forms aren't directly about sparring, but they help you learn control, precision, balance, and how different techniques can be used together and transition into each other.