TaeKwonDo sparrring: Does it resemble your forms?

[WaterGal]

In part, that might well be because given the prevalence of kicking in Korean arts in general and taekwondo specifically (which is what this thread is about), getting in close and staying in close is counter to some of the basic concepts of the art.

Proper structure and body mechanics make all the difference at ALL ranges.

That's true, though I know I have to say "get in close!!" plenty of times when I'm helping people learn to spar, hahaha. I'm sure you've those kids that try to kick from like 4 feet away.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's true, though I know I have to say "get in close!!" plenty of times when I'm helping people learn to spar, hahaha. I'm sure you've those kids that try to kick from like 4 feet away.

Of course. But kicking range is not exactly "close"... Close is short range hand techniques. Kicking range is a bit farther out. And taking a break range is even farther out.

 

[rainesr]

In part, that might well be because given the prevalence of kicking in Korean arts in general and taekwondo specifically (which is what this thread is about), getting in close and staying in close is counter to some of the basic concepts of the art.

I have seen many of the same or very similar techniques in TKD forms as we had in TSD and even Shotokan forms. One set of forms seems to have some nearly identical forms, like Won-Hyo and Pyong Ahn Ee Dan (Hinan Ni Dan, Pinan Sho Dan). Would the applications be that different? I have never been shown apps from a TKD perspective.

Proper structure and body mechanics make all the difference at ALL ranges.

I completely agree. What I was responding to was some of the posters that stated they don't punch from the hip or use the stances while sparring. Up close, body to body, those stances and actions like drawing your hand to the hip can be essential for the applications (as I was taught) to work. I think there is purpose beyond muscle conditioning.


~Rob

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I have seen many of the same or very similar techniques in TKD forms as we had in TSD and even Shotokan forms. One set of forms seems to have some nearly identical forms, like Won-Hyo and Pyong Ahn Ee Dan (Hinan Ni Dan, Pinan Sho Dan). Would the applications be that different? I have never been shown apps from a TKD perspective.

Rob,

There are basically two schools of thought on this point; the first camp feels that the movements in the forms demonstrate a basic block-punch-kick methodology. The second camp feels that the movements in the forms demonstrate applications beyond b-p-k such as locks, throws, escapes, balance displacement etc and that blocks are not blocks but rather strikes and/or locking movements. The second camp points out that Itosu Sensei created the Pinan katas and then relabeled them to a b-p-k format for the consumption of Okinawan school children, as well as statements in the writings of the various Ryu founders themselves. This isn't really a debated point in-and-of-itself as most Karate practitioners will attest to this position. What has been debated is if TKD (or any Korean art from that uses movements from Okinawan kata) forms contain the same applications. My position is this; as you've stated is that many forms are the same with only the name changed. Secondly, TKD-specific forms i.e. those created by the Koreans specifically for TKD use the same movements from Okinawan Karate therefore the applications are the same. As a brief example, if a 'down block' in an Okinawan kata represents a hammer fist and not a block, then a 'down block' in a Korean form will also represent a hammer fist whether or not the form creator intended for it to represent a hammer fist or is even aware that it represented a hammer fist. The caveat here is that the Korean created forms were basically designed with a different perspective than Okinawan kata i.e. TKD forms have graduated more towards sport applications and therefore may not, and often do not flow as seamlessly as an Okinawa kata that was designed directly for the purpose of personal protection. But I stress that TKD-specific forms can be, and are a wealth of application information in and off themselves if one wishes to train this way. The majority of TKD schools don't explain these applications because, simply put, they either don't know they exist or they aren't viable for there goals i.e. one can't use locks and throws in a kicking competition so it is a waste of time to train in locks and throws that will not assist you in your chosen goal. However, there is a small segment of TKD schools that do not have a sport focus and do use the applications.

Whether or not one uses b-p-k methodology or 'in-depth' methodology doesn't matter much when it comes to typical TKD sparring. As pointed out, it doesn't resemble either perspective. How could it? As pointed out in the other thread on hand techniques, the majority of movements in Korean forms is hand techniques yet the vast majority of sparring is kicking. Forms are the wrong tool for the job of training sparring IF sparring is centered on sport applications.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

What I was responding to was some of the posters that stated they don't punch from the hip or use the stances while sparring.

I don't remember seeing this but I'd like to make a quick comment on it that relates to my post above. The reason people don't punch from the hip in sparring, or indeed even in a real fight is because it isn't effective for the intended goal. People in a fight have their hands up covering vital areas rather than chambered on their hips. And if one understands and accepts the in-depth application explanation for this, the chambered hand on the hip isn't related to a punch at all. Not even remotely close to a strike. It is a grab (clothing, limb, head) and bringing that item back into your center while turning your wrist to off-balance which then sets the person up for a lock, throw or actual in-close strike. Those in Karate, Hapkido, Aikijujutsu, Chin Na etc do this movement all the time, they just don't use the forms as instructional aids. I use this same exact movement all the time on-duty to bring in a control a subject. That is why I can look at movements such as this and just 'see' the application that was originally intended (at least from the Okinawan perspective). This is just one example of where the b-p-k methodology breaks down completely or at least fails to address the movement from a realistic application. One can believe if they wish that the hand is chambered on the hip for the execution of a straight punch. But then I'd have to simply and respectfully ask...why don't you spar and/or fight that way? That movement wasn't just tossed in for grins. It has a meaning that is suppose to work in a real fight against a real, determined and resisting opponent.

Just tossing some things out for your consideration. YMMV

 

[rainesr]

I don't remember seeing this but I'd like to make a quick comment on it that relates to my post above. The reason people don't punch from the hip in sparring, or indeed even in a real fight is because it isn't effective for the intended goal. People in a fight have their hands up covering vital areas rather than chambered on their hips. And if one understands and accepts the in-depth application explanation for this, the chambered hand on the hip isn't related to a punch at all. Not even remotely close to a strike. It is a grab (clothing, limb, head) and bringing that item back into your center while turning your wrist to off-balance which then sets the person up for a lock, throw or actual in-close strike. Those in Karate, Hapkido, Aikijujutsu, Chin Na etc do this movement all the time, they just don't use the forms as instructional aids. I use this same exact movement all the time on-duty to bring in a control a subject. That is why I can look at movements such as this and just 'see' the application that was originally intended (at least from the Okinawan perspective). This is just one example of where the b-p-k methodology breaks down completely or at least fails to address the movement from a realistic application. One can believe if they wish that the hand is chambered on the hip for the execution of a straight punch. But then I'd have to simply and respectfully ask...why don't you spar and/or fight that way? That movement wasn't just tossed in for grins. It has a meaning that is suppose to work in a real fight against a real, determined and resisting opponent. Just tossing some things out for your consideration. YMMV

I wasn't taught that it was preparation for a punch either (at first I was).

What I was responding to was some of the posters that stated they don't punch from the hip or use the stances while sparring. Up close, body to body, those stances and actions like drawing your hand to the hip can be essential for the applications (as I was taught) to work.

I have noticed the apps in Silat, Kung Fu, and TSD are very similar, especially in the upper body. The base is different in each art and it changes things like where a person lands from a throw, whether the head or ribs are presented, things that seem to complement the mentality of the art. I think its fascinating how things end up fitting together.


~Rob

 

[Egon]

Hi everybody.

In Taekwondo you can't fight in exact way you do in forms. I mean, you can, but if you ever saw someone doing it..you know better not.

For me, forms develops things that are crucial for every martial artists in every field, except theory probably. Those things are: improved reaction time, reflexes, explosivity, precise, muscle endurance, better understanding of kinetic energy and body mechanics, and mental focus.

So I believe doing good forms leads to be better in everything so in sparring also.

Maybe not so relevant to sparring, but I believe I should mention that in forms you use kicks and punches as a weapon, not as a tool for scoring a point, which is pretty different.

One exception in sparring - forms relation is shortened long stance. I use it in point - stop sparring sometimes, it's very explosive stance and some serious force front kick or punch can be pulled.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Rob,

There are basically two schools of thought on this point; the first camp feels that the movements in the forms demonstrate a basic block-punch-kick methodology. The second camp feels that the movements in the forms demonstrate applications beyond b-p-k such as locks, throws, escapes, balance displacement etc and that blocks are not blocks but rather strikes and/or locking movements. The second camp points out that Itosu Sensei created the Pinan katas and then relabeled them to a b-p-k format for the consumption of Okinawan school children, as well as statements in the writings of the various Ryu founders themselves. This isn't really a debated point in-and-of-itself as most Karate practitioners will attest to this position. .

I am in a third camp and of course my camp is the correct one.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I am in a third camp and of course my camp is the correct one.

Our camp has hot dogs, smores and sing-a-longs, everyone welcome :s502: